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Who Do You Want to Work with on Hard Things?

01 Friday May 2026

Posted by in Asbury Church, Christian Living, Church culture, Ministry

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If you have hard work to do and much is unclear, what is the most important thing to get right?

First, a word about why the church has hard work to do and much is unclear. Then, my answer to what I think is most important to get right.

For several years I have thought about how much disruption and change has been happening in the culture, church, and academy. 

An image I often use is tectonic plates shifting, which cause earthquakes. The rumbling and shaking from earthquakes can alter the surrounding landscape and cause significant damage to buildings and infrastructure.

Tectonic plates have been moving in the culture, church, and academy. Or, perhaps one has caused rumbling and shaking that has altered the landscape of the others. 

From my seat as a seminary professor and pastor, I have been trying to articulate the challenges the church is facing. If you can diagnose the problem, then you will have an easier time identifying potential solutions.

I wrote a post a few months ago I titled: “Where Do We Go from Here?” It focused on demographic trends that show how difficult things will be for churches like mine in the coming years. 

I worked really hard on that post and am proud of it. If you missed it when I first published it, I hope you’ll check it out here. The argument I’m making here, really builds on this post. 

I keep thinking about one thing from that post. After summarizing demographic data from Ryan Burge and summarizing analysis from Aaron Renn and Christian Smith, I made a basic comment on what is facing the church:

This is going to be really difficult.

I think it might be particularly hard for people in my tribe (folks who were reared in Mainline Methodism). I don’t think people have yet understood just how deep and wide the culture shifts from the mid-2010s through the pandemic have been. We are not going back. The landscape has changed. 

Conversion to faith in Jesus is much harder than it was a few decades ago, much less 50 years ago.

I think the way denominations have functioned, since the founding of the UMC in 1968, has been within a Positive World framework. We don’t even live in Neutral World anymore. We live in Negative World. The strategies and plays from Positive World don’t work anymore. And the evidence of that is in front of many of our faces every Sunday morning. 

(If the Positive, Neutral, and Negative World framework isn’t familiar to you, I highly suggest reading Aaron Renn’s “The Three Worlds of Evangelicalism.”)

One of the reasons the work facing the church is going to be really difficult is because we are trying to understand exactly and how much things have changed while things continue to change. (From legalizing same sex marriage to fluid gender separated from biology, to woke ideology, to the gradual and then rapid rise of AI, and so on.) And while we are trying to understand (but don’t fully understand), we must make decisions and act.

It is ok to not be confident about the right answers to the variety of challenges facing the church.

I don’t think it is ok to recognize that things aren’t working and just stubbornly keep doing the same things anyway.

And I don’t think it is ok to pretend that things are just fine and continue with the work of the church with strategies that worked in the 1980s.

Again, people coming from Mainline Protestant contexts may be particularly at a disadvantage here. I’m not sure if they are worse off than Southern Baptists or Roman Catholics. I don’t know those denominations well enough to have an informed opinion.

A major disadvantage of my background was being formed in a bureaucratic and risk-averse institution that was often unwilling to acknowledge reality at all if it was inconvenient. 

Let me illustrate this with one example:

At the Annual Conferences I attended, there would be a part of the conference where we had to vote to close churches that were no longer viable. They usually had less than 10 people in average attendance and were not able to pay to maintain their building. One would think this would be cause for lament or self-reflection. There was no need for shame or condemnation. But it was sad. Yet, these churches were always introduced in a way that you would have thought they were among the most dynamic and effective churches in the entire conference at sharing the gospel and the church’s mission to make disciples. One year, I leaned over and asked a friend, “If that church is doing so well, why is it closing?”

It felt like a very strange adaptation of the children’s story The Emperor’s New Clothes. (Spoiler: The emperor had no clothes on. But everyone pretended that he did, until a child who didn’t know any better articulated what was obvious to everyone loud enough for even the emperor to hear.)

So, church leaders are faced with the challenge of accurately diagnosing, and then understanding, the times in which we live (while they continue to rapidly change). And they must also continue to do the work of the church as best they can in real time.

On top of that, in many of the places I’ve been, there is a strong aversion to leaders leading. At times, the attempt to lead is itself offensive. This is often, though not always, an overreaction to the failures of a previous leader (or the failures of the system that sabotaged the previous leader). These things are complicated!

Back to the question I began with: If you have hard work to do and much is unclear, what is the most important thing to get right?

My answer: The most important thing to get right is answering the question: Who do you want to work with on hard things?

This is the best way I can explain the joy I’ve found in my work at Asbury Church. At one level, my job at the church is the hardest job I’ve ever had. But I am having the most fun I’ve ever had. I am having fun because I am part of a team that is willing to ask hard questions, refuses to settle for polite nonsense, and keeps pressing because we believe that God is not done with us and he has more for us.

We don’t have all the answers. That’s ok. No one does.

The work of the church has always been hard. And it is the best job in the world. I believe a key to thriving in this work for the long haul is finding the people you want to work with on hard things.

I found my people and I’m grateful.

P.S. If you’re interested in seeing the kind of work I’m doing with my people, check out our Pentecost service, which will launch the Asbury Connection. (It will also be available on Asbury Tulsa’s YouTube channel a few days after the service.)

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Understanding John Wesley’s View of Ordination: A Surprise in the Founding of American Methodism

24 Friday Apr 2026

Posted by in Asbury Church, Methodist History, Ministry, Wesley

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I am a small “c” conservative. I want to understand why something is the way that it is before I tear down, rearrange, or remove it entirely. In my work as an historian, I often find it helpful to simply reread key documents to understand why things were the way that they are and, therefore, are the way that they are.

One document I have read many times since I left the United Methodist Church and have been praying, talking with others, and seeking to discern the way forward post-disaffiliation from the UMC is the letter John Wesley wrote to “Our Brethren in America” after he took the bold step of ordaining two lay people deacons and then elders in order to launch the Methodist Episcopal Church.

As is typically the case with historical documents at key inflection points in history, there is much in this letter that is of interest. But there is one detail that I’m not sure I really understood or appreciated until it became clear to me that I would not be able to stay in the UMC. I am convinced Wesley is correct about this detail and it has been a key piece of my own discernment about what I think the Lord is doing in my life and at my church.

First, a bit of background to help you understand this letter. Wesley wrote the letter to “Our Brethren in America” after he and James Creighton ordained Richard Whatcoat and Thomas Vasey as deacons on September 1, 1784, and then elders on September 2. Wesley and Creighton also laid hands on Thomas Coke, who was an ordained elder in the Church of England, and set him apart as a superintendent.

These actions were crucial steps toward establishing denominational Methodism, leading to the formation of the Methodist Episcopal Church, which was the first Methodist denomination in the United States.

The steps Wesley took were also controversial and radical. John Wesley was an elder in the Church of England. Elders do not ordain in the Church of England, bishops ordain. John Wesley was not a bishop. And so, Wesley’s decision to take authority to ordain upon himself required explanation. And that is what Wesley did in his September 10, 1784 letter to “Our Brethren in America.”

Here it is in its entirety:

By a very uncommon train of providences many of the Provinces of North America are totally disjoined from their Mother Country and erected into independent States. The English Government has no authority over them, either civil or ecclesiastical, any more than over the States of Holland. A civil authority is exercised over them, partly by the Congress, partly by the Provincial Assemblies. But no one either exercises or claims any ecclesiastical authority at all. In this peculiar situation some thousands of the inhabitants of these States desire my advice; and in compliance with their desire I have drawn up a little sketch.

Lord King’s Account of the Primitive Church convinced me many years ago that bishops and presbyters are the same order, and consequently have the same right to ordain. For many years I have been importuned from time to time to exercise this right by ordaining part of our traveling preachers. But I have still refused, not only for peace’ sake, but because I was determined as little as possible to violate the established order of the National Church to which I belonged.

But the case is widely different between England and North America. Here there are bishops who have a legal jurisdiction: in America there are none, neither any parish ministers. So that for some hundred miles together there is none either to baptize or to administer the Lord’s supper. Here, therefore, my scruples are at an end; and I conceive myself at full liberty, as I violate no order and invade no man’s right by appointing and sending laborers into the harvest.

I have accordingly appointed Dr. Coke and Mr. Francis Asbury to be Joint Superintendents over our brethren in North America; as also Richard Whatcoat and Thomas Vasey to act as elders among them, by baptizing and administering the Lord’s Supper. And I have prepared a Liturgy little differing from that of the Church of England (I think, the best constituted National Church in the world), which I advise all the traveling preachers to use on the Lord’s Day in all the congregations, reading the Litany only on Wednesdays and Fridays and praying extempore on all other days. I also advise the elders to administer the Supper of the Lord on every Lord’s Day.

If any one will point out a more rational and scriptural way of feeding and guiding these poor sheep in the wilderness, I will gladly embrace it. At present I cannot see any better method than that I have taken.

It has, indeed, been proposed to desire the English bishops to ordain part of our preachers for America. But to this I object; (1) I desired the Bishop of London to ordain only one, but could not prevail. (2) If they consented, we know the slowness of their proceedings; but the matter admits of no delay. (3) If they would ordain them now, they would likewise expect to govern them. And how grievously would this entangle us! (4) As our American brethren are now totally disentangled both from the State and from the English hierarchy, we dare not entangle them again either with the one or the other. They are now at full liberty simply to follow the Scriptures and the Primitive Church. And we judge it best that they should stand fast in that liberty wherewith God has so strangely made them free.

There is so much in this letter that is interesting and even instructive for the church today. I think the second to last paragraph might be my personal favorite. I love Wesley’s humility, honesty, and willingness to lead in the midst of wrestling. He basically says, “If you can show me a better way, I would love to be convinced. I’ve thought about this for years and this is the best I can come up with. It was time to act, so I did the best I could with everything in front of me.”

I appreciate this because our assumption ought to be that this is what everyone has been doing on the other side of disaffiliation. We may not get everything right, but we must do the best we can.

As much as I like the details in that paragraph, however, it is not the detail I was referring to at the beginning of this post.

Did you notice John Wesley’s own understanding of ordination and how different it is from that of contemporary mainline Methodism?

The key detail is in one short phrase: “Bishops and presbyters are the same order, and consequently have the same right to ordain.”

John Wesley was not a bishop. American Methodism did not start with bishops as a separate office or order from elders. The elders were the overseers. This is why bishops are not ordained in the UMC, for example. They are set apart among the elders to superintend the work beyond the local church. (This is one reason that there has been debate about whether bishops in the UMC ought to be a lifelong office, or only an office one has while one is actively exercising the functions of the office.)

Here is the key detail that I believe gives warrant to elder-led ordination in Wesleyan polity and ought to at least give humility to those who follow in John Wesley’s footsteps who embrace an episcopal polity:

American Methodism did not begin with bishops as a required office for ordination. It began with an elder (John Wesley) deciding to take authority himself to ordain based on his reading of a history of the early church and the New Testament witness.

For me personally, this has made me relax about concerns about apostolic succession as a continuous line of succession of ordination that is rightly ordered that goes all the way back to the apostles. American Methodists of any stripe don’t have a claim to that because our first ordinations did not come from a bishop, but from an elder taking the authority to ordain without the blessing of his own church.

I am not saying Methodism is missing one of the marks of the church. We are apostolic in that we are carrying, stewarding, and defending the teaching of the apostles to hand it down to the next generation.

Let me also say I was ordained by a bishop. I am thankful to have been ordained by Bishop Robert E. Hayes, Jr. I do not think it is wrong for Methodists to have bishops. I also do not think it is wrong for Methodists to not have bishops. Why? 

Because the beginning of Methodism as a denomination is literally built on the conviction that bishops and elders are the same order.

I believe Wesley was correct. In the New Testament, elders and overseers are the same category. In Acts 20:17-35, Paul is speaking to one audience. In Acts 20:17 Paul “called the elders (presbyteros) of the church to him.” It is to these same people (the elders), Paul says in verse 28, “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers (episkopos), to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.”

For what it is worth, when you look at the history of the Wesleyan tradition in the United States across the range of Wesleyan denominations, the office of bishop is one of the significant places of disagreement among these denominations. Again, this doesn’t mean it is wrong to have bishops. It does mean that there have been spectacular abuses of power from some American Methodist bishops. There have also been many examples of some bishop’s asserting their personal convictions over and against the clear polity of their own church.

All of this matters to me, because Asbury Church, where I serve, will hold a service of consecration and ordination this Pentecost. We will not have bishops at this service. The ordinations will be elder led. And I am going to participate. Over the past several years, I have spent a significant amount of time and energy reading, thinking, and praying about the best path forward. I have listened and tried to understand the various approaches other churches that left the UMC have taken. Like Wesley, the best I can say is, “I cannot see any better method than that I have taken.”

I am not taking this step begrudgingly or hesitatingly, though I have spent a season of watching and waiting. I am taking this step with joyful expectation for what the Lord has in store for us. If we are wrong, the Lord will make it clear to us. But with the best light I have right now, I am as confident as I can be that this is what the Lord is leading us to do.

As Asbury Church, we believe that if you are still breathing, God has more for you. This phrase comes from our Senior Pastor, Rev. Andrew Forrest. It is a beautiful contemporary expression of the Wesleyan belief in the possibility of radical holiness in this life. From womb to tomb, God always has more!

I can’t wait to see the details of that “more” coming into focus over the coming weeks and years.

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Recovering Methodist Identity: My New Book with David Watson

06 Monday Apr 2026

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Well, Asbury Theological Seminary’s President beat me to it. Dr. David Watson was the first to get the word out about the book we’ve written together. His Substack post, “A Methofesto: Introducing a New Book by Those Watson Boys” is really funny and gives some interesting backstory to the challenges we faced getting this book into print.

For my part, I am grateful to finally have a book in print with David Watson. People keep thinking that David wrote The Class Meeting. (And I’m pretty sure he’s been taking credit for it. Not that I’ve ever taken credit for his book Scripture and the Life of God.) At least people won’t get us confused on this one. 

David has long been a kind of older brother for me in the faith and in the academy. It really is an honor to be able to reflect on the meaning of the Wesleyan/Methodist theological tradition and its contribution to the contemporary church with him.

I don’t remember when these conversations first started, but for well more than a decade, we have had innumerable informal conversations about things wrong with the Methodist movement and how to fix them. It was a healthy and invigorating challenge for me to have the task of putting pen to paper to make a considered argument for the contribution of the tradition started under the leadership of John Wesley in the late 1730s in our day.

The chapter I most enjoyed working on was the one on “Methodism and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.” This has been one of the areas where the riches of the Wesleyan theological heritage have been an asset. And it has been where I’ve most enjoyed learning and growing as a Christian, a pastor, and a teacher. I share a personal story in that chapter that is a piece of my experience of the work of the Spirit in my life that I haven’t ever shared in print.

David shared a brief excerpt from the introduction in his Substack, which you can read there. I want to share a different part from the same, which points to the book’s big idea:

Why do the people called Methodist exist today? No movement can thrive without a clear sense of identity, and the Methodist movement in the West suffers from an identity crisis. In the interest of being modern, relevant, or attractional, we have lost a clear sense of why we exist in the first place. Put more sharply, Methodists have time and again compromised our particularity by accommodating our beliefs to the spirit of the age. It’s time for a different approach….

We cannot simply re-create early Methodism, but we can recover aspects of its life that gave it such power. We want fire, not ashes.

If you want to see fresh faith and fire in the Methodist and Wesleyan family in our day, please buy a copy of this book. The work we put into this can only make an impact if people read the book. Currently, physical copies are only available through Seedbed (the publisher). You can buy the Kindle version through Amazon.

P.S. Yesterday was a great day at Asbury Church! We had 6,300+ in person for our 3 Easter services. Rodney Adams, Asbury’s Executive Director, and I were reflecting at the end of the morning about how blessed we are as a staff to see what the Lord is doing in our midst right now. Large churches catch a lot of strays these days. There is a lazy sophomoric critique that says “we care about people, not numbers.” But that is exactly why I’m fired up about our numbers. The numbers represent actual people. We had more than 800 more people in worship yesterday than we did last year on Easter (a 14% increase from last Easter). That is 800 individual people, created in the image of God, who heard the best Easter Sunday sermon I’ve ever heard. And they were explicitly invited to count the cost of following Jesus and come back next week ready to make a profession of faith in him.

I hope your Easter was fantastic. God is good!

I cannot wait for Pentecost this year.

P.P.S. It is not too late to apply for the Asbury Fellows Program, which I lead at Asbury Church. The first year has been great and I am really excited to welcome the next group of Fellows to Asbury. Applications are due by April 17, 2026. Details here.

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Join the Asbury Church Fellowship Program

04 Wednesday Mar 2026

Posted by in Asbury Church, Class Meetings, Fellowship Program, Ministry, Underground Seminary, Wesley

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We are committed to raising up the next generation of leaders for the church at Asbury. We believe doing this well requires a significant investment of time and resources. One of the ways we have begun this work was by launching a Fellowship Program at Asbury Church last year.

Asbury Church Fellowships are two-year full-time paid positions, with benefits.

We are six months into the launch of the Fellowship Program and so far it has been a spectacular success! We hired Grace Hess and Caleb Starr as our inaugural Asbury Fellows and they’ve been great! We want to build on that success, so we are starting our search for the next round of Asbury Fellows. Please help us spread the word!  

What is the Asbury Church Fellowship Program?

The Asbury Church Fellowship Program is a two-year fellowship in Tulsa, Oklahoma, designed to prepare future church leaders for today’s cultural context. 

Fellows gain hands-on experience through rotational roles in:

  • Pastoral Ministry
  • Students/College/Young Adults
  • Business Administration
  • Outreach/Evangelism
  • Experience/Hospitality
  • Worship Arts
  • Communications
  • Asbury Classical School

Fellows will grow through mentoring and discipleship. (This is where I get to spend most of my time with the Fellows.) I meet with Fellows weekly for a Wesleyan class meeting experience, one-on-one check-ins, and a monthly book discussion. I love reading and engaging ideas and I want to introduce Fellows to the best books I’ve read on the Christian life, discipleship, the person and work of the Holy Spirit, big ideas about current issues, personal productivity, leadership, and more. The purpose of all of this will be to grow in Christ, ability to lead and disciple others, and be equipped to lead and minister in our changing cultural moment. (Some of the books we have read so far are: Dallas Willard’s The Divine Conspiracy, Aaron Renn’s Life in the Negative World, and Edwin Friedman’s A Failure of Nerve.)

Asbury Fellows will be present at all worship services (including Wednesday morning communion and Thursday evening), staff chapel, and Wednesday evening discipleship activities, with a “see a need, meet a need” attitude. 

Fellows will also observe leadership meetings, attend the monthly pastor’s Bible Study, assist with pastoral care and visitations, and other experiences that serve the Fellow’s growth and development as a ministry leader.

The program is ideal for ministry-minded individuals seeking accelerated spiritual and leadership growth within a growing, evangelical congregation with Wesleyan theological roots. Fellows will be in seminary or recent seminary graduates.

Why I Am So Excited about the Asbury Church Fellowship Program

I am best at inviting people to things I enthusiastically believe in and I enthusiastically believe in what Jesus is doing at Asbury Church! Asbury Church has remarkable leadership. And really fun things are happening here.

I believe the Fellowship Program is a crucial strategy in a time of uncertainty and significant change in American Christianity. The Fellowship Program is an intentional investment in in-person formation. The problems facing the church in our day will not be solved by applying more technology. We need to invest more fully in relationships in enfleshed spaces. The people I have seen really grow and thrive in their lives in Christ all have one thing in common: They are anchored within a family of faith that provides care, nurture, and discipline. And so, Asbury Fellows will move to Tulsa to be fully present here for two years.

This is a major investment in in-person formation in order to raise up the next generation of leaders for the church. I expect this program to grow over the coming years. And I am excited to see Fellows go from Asbury Church to lead in other churches and themselves raise up leaders for the church.

We are in a time of major change in the broader culture, the church, and the academy. One of the things this means is that approaches to raising up leaders for the church are changing in real time. Some of the things that were taken for granted for the past 50 years are no longer bearing fruit.

The Asbury Church Fellowship Program is our first step to proactively addressing the need for new leaders to be formed, strengthened, and released to lead in the church. I have become more convinced over the past decade that raising up leaders best happens within the church and not outside of it.

Who is Asbury Church?

Asbury Church is a conservative evangelical church from the Wesleyan theological heritage in Tulsa, Oklahoma. In 2026, Asbury has averaged nearly 2,900 people in-person in worship on average each week. (That is 13% growth compared to just last year!) We are passionate about figuring out how to do discipleship and evangelism with excellence in Negative World.[1] 

(The “Negative World” framework is integral to the Fellowship Program, so you will want to familiarize yourself with it if you don’t know about it and are trying to discern whether this is right for you.)

Asbury Church has the kinds of ministry opportunities you would expect of a church of this size: a pre-school, weekly small groups, kids and youth ministry, recovery ministry, and more. We lean into big events like Christmas Eve and Easter, as well as our own made-up holiday – Celebration Sunday! We are a Bible reading church, which is expressed through Bible reading guides and all church Bible Studies (which are roughly once a month during the school year). We also host a seminary extension site (Asbury Theological Seminary, a separate institution) on our property, which reflects our commitment to theological education and raising up the next generation of leaders for the church. Our commitment to education and formation is further seen in our launch of a Classical Christian School (Asbury Classical School) that is in its second year. And we are known in our community for our commitment to missions in and beyond our community.

Who is the Asbury Fellowship Program for?

The Asbury Fellowship Program is ideal for people who have at least one year of full-time seminary experience to recent seminary graduates, who intend to go into local church ministry as their first career. The Fellowship Program is for people who are hungry for more of Jesus, want to grow, desire a deeper understanding and experience of the person and work of the Holy Spirit, and sense a calling to the work of the church. 

Asbury Fellows will be people who love being around Jesus’s church, are excited by the prospect of being immersed in the life of a church for a season and are eager to serve and participate in the full worshipping life of Asbury Church. Fellows will not only be hungry for more of God, but they will come humble, ready to grow and learn, and be led for a season. 

The Asbury Fellowship Program will be a season of accelerated growth for Fellows in their preparation for leadership and administration of the local church. This Fellowship is for people who know they are called to the local church in some sense but may not be sure which part of the church they are called to. This is for people who know they don’t know everything and want to learn from a large and growing church that believes God has more for everyone and is passionate about pursuing joy individually and corporately. 

When will it start?

Applications are due by April 17, 2026, for a program start in August/September 2026.

Click here for full job listing and program details.

P.S. Don’t miss Underground Seminary with Asbury Theological Seminary’s President Dr. David Watson. He will discuss the book he and I wrote together that is hot off the press: Faith & Fire: Methodism as a Move of God. Click here for more details.

[1] We believe Aaron Renn’s diagnosis is accurate. The church in the United States is not in Positive World or Neutral World anymore. The dominant culture and elite taste makers overwhelmingly view the teachings of Scripture and those who unapologetically hold to them negatively. For more, see Aaron Renn, Life in the Negative World (Zondervan, 2024). For the article that led to the book, see Aaron Renn, “The Three Worlds of Evangelicalism” in First Things https://firstthings.com/the-three-worlds-of-evangelicalism/

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Join Dr. David Watson at Underground Seminary: Faith & Fire

27 Friday Feb 2026

Posted by in Christian Living, Church culture, Methodist History, Ministry, Underground Seminary

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Our next Underground Seminary is going to be our biggest yet! This is the first time that we will have a guest who travels in from out of state to be with us. And I am so pumped to introduce him to you.

This Underground Seminary is called Faith & Fire.

And it will feature Dr. David Watson, the President of Asbury Theological Seminary. 

Asbury Theological Seminary is one of the largest seminaries in the world and is the largest Wesleyan evangelical seminary in the United States. Asbury Seminary’s headquarters are in Wilmore, KY which is where the outpouring of the Holy Spirit happened on campus in February 2023. I love getting to be on the faculty and teach at Asbury!

Who this is for:

Underground Seminary is for people who are in ministry, interested in ministry, or considering ministry. It is for people who are hungry for more of God. It is for people who want to learn how to be more effective in work in the church. It is for people who want to grow in faith and holiness.

Underground Seminary is a place for candid and off the record discussion of ideas that matter, particularly for the church in the 21st century and might not fit in a typical seminary curriculum. Underground Seminary is non-academic, not for credit, and only in person.

And my favorite part: Underground Seminary gives people considering or getting started in ministry access to great leaders. This is one of my favorite parts of doing this. I have two decades of ministry experience in the church and academy, and I know firsthand that great leaders are also in demand and have full schedules. It excites me to be able to give people access to my favorite leaders.

Underground Seminary is serious and fun. 

It is inspiring and practical.

What this Underground Seminary is about: 

Faith & Fire

You will get to have a conversation with Dr. David Watson, President of Asbury Theological Seminary. He and I have written a book together called Faith & Fire: Methodism as a Move of God. This will be the first time I get to talk about this book. And it is going to be so much fun!

I am going to invite Dr. Watson to start by sharing what people in ministry need to not just survive, but to thrive in their work. How should people prepare for ministry and what maintenance should they do to continue to grow in their work? What do you need to do to bring faith & fire to your seminary education, maintain it throughout seminary and your entire ministry?

Then, Dr. Watson and I will talk about our new book. For more than a century, from John Wesley’s “heart warming experience” at Aldersgate Street through the dramatic growth of the Methodist Episcopal Church through the 1850s, Methodism was a powerful move of God. In our book, David and I share the keys for a Spirit-filled movement of God in our day. David will unpack this in ways that will be relevant and insightful for your ministry.

When is this?

March 26, 2026 from 12:00-2:30 pm.

Where is this?

This Underground Seminary will meet at Asbury Church in the CLC. Asbury Church is located at 6767 S. Mingo Road, Tulsa, OK 74133. The CLC is just to left when you come in the West Foyer. We will have hosts ready to greet you and point you in the right direction from any of the main entrances.

You need to register.

Register at this link. 

The cost for this Underground Seminary is $10. You will receive a copy of Faith & Fire and lunch is included. In case it isn’t obvious: We are not making any money here. The church will cover the additional cost for every person who attends. (If you have dietary restrictions, please email amiller@asburytulsa.org after you register.)

You need Faith & Fire! 

So does the church.

Are you ready for more? Come join us!

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

“His words have the disadvantage of not being true.”

30 Friday Jan 2026

Posted by in Book Review, Christian Living

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A sentence I read in a book has had me thinking about something I think should be a strong value for pastors (and all Christians).

We should have a basic concern for the truth. 

We should not say things that obscure the truth.

I’ve been thinking about this as a result of reading Thomas G. Long’s Accompany Them with Singing: The Christian Funeral. 

(Though this post is focused on something that is largely tangential to this book, I want to say that this is a really good book. I recommend it for thinking about death, funerals, and memorial services.)

I chuckled when I read this sentence:

“If that is what he meant, his words have the disadvantage of not being true.”

Here is the broader context for this quote:

The pastor’s affirmation that the deceased would “never be forgotten,” though commonly said at funerals, is also ambiguous. Probably he meant to offer comfort by implying that, even though the deceased is now dead and gone, not all is lost, because the memory of his life and good works will live among us always. If that is what he meant, his words have the disadvantage of not being true. Cemeteries are full of the graves of people no one remembers any longer. If the deceased are of value only if we the living can keep their memory alive, then we are to be pitied. As the psalmist truly says, “As for mortals, their days are like grass; they flourish like a flower of the field; for the wind passes over it, and it is gone, and its place knows it no more” (Ps. 103:15-16). [p. 97]

Long points out the way in which the sentence is not true either practically or theologically. 

You don’t have to think very hard about the idea that someone who has just died will “never be forgotten” to realize it is untrue. People say it because they believe it will be comforting. But it isn’t true. And that is actually a big deal.

We should not try to comfort people by telling them things that are not true. 

Though doubtless well-intentioned, the statement is also theologically problematic. Long continues:

“The gospel does not place the burden on the living to keep alive the spiritual flame of memory. Rather, it affirms that the deceased is now raised to new life and sings in the great choir of the communion of saints standing in the presence of God. Only in this way, only in the life of God, is the deceased “never forgotten.” [p. 98]

One of the most important roles of a pastor is a persistent determination to tell the truth and point people away from confusion, deception, and outright lies.

This is easy when we catch someone telling a lie to hide the truth in an intentional way. Most people still know that is wrong.

The more pressing challenge is to think more carefully about what we are saying about reality and ask if it is really true.

Too often, the things that are said by Christian leaders sound nice and there is a syrupy and superficial promise of bringing comfort.

But they have the disadvantage of not being true.

Pastors should be more like medical doctors in this regard.

If your doctor discovers that you have a serious illness, they will tell you even though they know it will make you feel bad. They don’t do this because they like it. They do it because it is their job to tell you the truth about the reality of your health.

Too often, especially in mainline Protestant contexts, pastors have acted as if their highest calling was to make people feel better.

But, again, this has the disadvantage of not being true.

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Upcoming Events at Asbury: What to Know

09 Friday Jan 2026

Posted by in Class Meetings, Ministry, Teaching, Underground Seminary

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Happy New Year!

This Spring is going to be awesome here in Tulsa at Asbury. 

At Asbury Church we have just started our Year Through the Bible, using The One Year Bible. And we are off to a great start! Throughout Advent, we gave away 11,500 Bibles and completely ran out. We ordered 4,000 more in mid-December and they just arrived yesterday.

Among other things, we have created a website to help specifically to help people read through the Bible in 2026. I am consistently impressed with the great work Asbury’s staff is able to do on these kinds of things! Check out yearthroughthebible.com.

Today is January 9th. You can still join us! In fact, even if you aren’t in Tulsa, you can download the Life Bible App and set the start date to January 1, 2026, and read along with us for free. (Click the Life Bible App button at yearthroughthebible.com and there is a video that shows you how to sync the app up with the beginning of the year so you are on the correct reading for January 9th. Unfortunately, you cannot do this on YouVersion.)

We had more than 8,000 people attend Christmas Eve services in person at Asbury this year. It was so fun to see so many people in worship, especially extended families. 

After Covid and 2020, I will never take for granted worshipping in person with people again.

This past Sunday, we had 3,074 people in person for worship at Asbury, more than we’ve had in worship the first Sunday of the year since 2014. (Though we live stream our worship service and publish sermons online, we do not count online views in our worship attendance numbers. We literally count noses in the sanctuary or chapel.)

My favorite part of life at Asbury has been getting to know individual people and seeing them take steps forward in their faith. I am in a small group with 8 people, and we are linking arms and committing to read through the entire Bible together in 2026. We met for the first time last night and I feel so excited and hopeful for what the Lord is going to do this year.

If you live in the Tulsa area, you should come and be a part of what God is doing at Asbury. 

If you don’t live in the Tulsa area, I want to invite you to be part of some things that are worth coming to Tulsa for at the Asbury Theological Seminary Tulsa Extension Site.

I know this can be confusing to folks, so let me clarify that there are two Asburys. (Asburies?) Asbury Church and Asbury Theological Seminary. I get to work at both. The Church is in Tulsa, OK. Asbury Theological Seminary is in Wilmore, KY, with several extension campuses including one in Tulsa. Asbury Church hosts the Asbury Theological Seminary Tulsa, OK Extension Site. 

Despite the potential for confusion, I like that the church and seminary I’m at both share the same theological heritage and intentionally express that by being named after Francis Asbury, the Father of American Methodism.

Francis Asbury statue at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK

Now, back to exciting upcoming events in Tulsa at the Asbury Seminary Tulsa Site:

I am teaching two hybrid classes this Spring semester. A hybrid class is part online and part in person. This means you can complete the entire class online with a 3 day in-person intensive in Tulsa. (To state the obvious, this means you do not have to live in Tulsa to be able to take a class with me.)

These intensives are SO FUN!

I am teaching TH501: Basic Christian Doctrine. The in-person intensive is March 5-7, 2026

I am teaching TH650/SF650: Wesleyan Discipleship. The in-person intensive is March 26-28, 2026.

You should take both classes, of course.

But, if you can only take one, I am especially excited about Wesleyan Discipleship. This is my favorite class to teach. It is an historical introduction to the basics of discipleship in the Wesleyan tradition that also offers very practical guidance on how to implement the essentials of following Jesus with a Wesleyan accent. Students will learn about the theology and practice of the Wesleyan class meeting and band meeting and receive hands-on training in implementing these groups.

This will be my fourth time teaching this class. I’ve received amazing feedback from students each time about how it has changed their own faith and equipped them to lead in their own churches.

I cannot wait to teach this class!

I am also excited about this version of this particular class because Asbury Theological Seminary’s President, Dr. David Watson, is coming to Tulsa! (People always want to know if we are related. We are not.) 

I was thrilled to learn of Dr. Watson’s appointment to serve as President of Asbury Seminary and am looking forward to having him be with us here in Tulsa. This is a big deal.

President Watson is going to do 3 things I want to invite you to attend:

1. He will lead our next Underground Seminary, where he will discuss the brand-new book we wrote together: Faith and Fire: Methodism as a Move of God. (More on this book in a future post.) This event will be here in Tulsa on March 26, 2026, from 12:00-2:30pm. More on this Underground Seminary here soon. 

2. Dr. Watson will preach at Asbury Seminary’s chapel service for my hybrid class. That chapel service will be on Friday March 27, 2026, at 11 am in the Asbury Church Development Center chapel. This service is for the Asbury Theological Seminary community. If you are considering seminary, this would be an ideal time to come check us out. You can sit in on my class before chapel, then hear from the President of Asbury Seminary, and stick around for lunch with current students. If you’re interested reach out to penny.hammond@asburyseminary.edu.

3. Dr. Watson will be preaching at our Sunday morning worship services at Asbury Church on Palm Sunday (March 29th). Sundays at Asbury are so fun. I always encourage students to stick around for worship on Sunday if they are able. Sundays are really fun and it is a great chance for students to get a sense of how things work at a different church than their own.

It is not too late to enroll for class at Asbury Seminary this Spring! I know of a student who started the admissions process on a Sunday and received word that he was admitted by Thursday. But time is running out. You should start the application process today and then enroll in my class!

Like I said, this Spring is going to be awesome here in Tulsa at Asbury.

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Cultivating Culture: Doing Common Things Uncommonly Well

29 Wednesday Oct 2025

Posted by in Christian Living, Church culture, Ministry, Underground Seminary

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One of the things I have really appreciated about my time in Tulsa has been learning about the importance of culture in an organization. I knew quite a bit in theory about this before coming to Asbury Church. But I did not have firsthand experience of an organization intentionally working on setting a healthy culture with excellence and experiencing breakthrough like I have here.


I’ve experienced this in a handful of ways. One of my favorites is the way Andrew Forrest, Asbury’s Senior Pastor, and Rodney Adams, Asbury’s Executive Director, develop and use punchy short phrases over and over again that point to and motivate desired outcomes within the staff and the Church. I’ll share some of these here from time to time because I think they will be helpful to you. Here is the first one:

“At Asbury, we do the common uncommonly well.”

This is a great phrase for so many reasons. Here are a few:

1. It changes the way we think about the things we commonly do.

There is a tendency to think that because something is common, we already know how to do it with excellence. But that is not the case. In fact, the common is often done exceptionally poorly. And that is a disaster for the culture of any organization!

Can I give you an example? 

Since moving to Tulsa, I occasionally lead the first part of our worship service. When I do this, my job is to kickstart the service with appropriate tone and confidence. 

If you have been to any worship service, they all have this in common. There is some moment that starts the worship service. And most of the time there is not much forethought given to that moment.

But it sets the tone for the entire service! It is crazy to not practice, rehearse, and prepare with uncommon effort for this moment.

And so, I have practiced over and over and over again in my office, in front of the mirror, and in front of colleagues. And I still have room to get better.

Boy has this been humbling. 

As I’ve tried to do the common welcome and greeting uncommonly well, I have made mistakes. I once showed our staff a recording of a welcome and greeting at our Thursday evening service when I forgot to introduce myself, take off my name tag, and empty my pockets. I then showed the recording of the 11am Sunday service where I had ironed out these mistakes to illustrate the difference practice makes.

Working to do the common welcome and greeting to a worship service uncommonly well has been difficult and challenging.

And it has been SO FUN! I have really enjoyed being part of a culture of excellence and seeing myself improve in a basic skill for pastoral ministry. Growth is fun.

2. This phrase makes it obvious that we are a place that expects hard work, consistent effort, and commitment to improve. 

Doing basic things with excellence takes work. It takes effort. It takes hunger and commitment to grow. It requires a willingness to receive feedback and be coached up.

And, guess what? 

These are also all qualities we want to see embedded in the culture at Asbury Church. 

3. Doing the common uncommonly well gives everyone the opportunity to focus on doing their work with excellence.

In church work, the Sunday morning worship service is the most important part of the week. It’s true. But this can also lead people to thinking excellence is only required at the most public facing and visible thing happening on Sunday morning, such as the music and the sermon. 

Emphasizing doing the common uncommonly well helps everyone be engaged in doing their work with excellence. 

Am I currently working to do the basic functions of my job with excellence? Even asking that question almost always surfaces areas where I can grow as a leader. 

4. This phrase creates a disincentive to join the team at Asbury, or remain on it, if someone does not want to work with excellence.

I love the way doing the common uncommonly well puts the focus on a positive target. And so this last one may initially seem negative or off-putting to you. However, another thing we often say at Asbury is, “clarity is kindness.” We are pursuing excellence. We expect everyone on our staff to do the common uncommonly well. Therefore, I see it as a kindness to folks considering joining our team to make this expectation clear.

One of the reasons working on the culture of an organization matters is because different places have different cultures. I love being at Asbury Church! But Asbury may not be someone else’s cup of tea. 

That is ok!

It just means Asbury won’t be the right place for them to work.

I am thankful for the ways Andrew and Rodney are intentionally bringing clarity to the staff at Asbury Church here in Tulsa, OK.

And I have found it energizing to think intentionally about the ways I can do the common uncommonly well in my work. Growth and improvement are fun. And I always have room for more of both in my work. 

Next Step: What is one area in your current work where deciding to do basic work with greater intentionality and excellence would make a significant impact? Start with a basic and simple step and build from there. 

Here is an example of a next step from Asbury: 

The first practical step toward doing the common uncommonly well here was a focus on email, especially subject lines. Andrew took time in several monthly staff meetings to explain this emphasis and then walk through how to improve use of email, especially writing subject lines that provide clear communication to the sender, especially when they are for internal work at the church. Immediately after that meeting, I started thinking about the purpose of an email subject line differently, and working on writing them with greater intentionality. 

P.S. Have you registered for our Underground Seminary event yet? The deadline to register is October 30th. This is an opportunity to hear Asbury Church’s Senior Pastor, Rev. Andrew Forrest, talk about his new book Love Goes First. This is one of the best books I’ve read in the past decade. If you are in the area, you don’t want to miss this. Register now before time runs out. Details here.

P.P.S. I am teaching two classes at Asbury Seminary in Tulsa this coming Spring. Both classes are hybrid classes, which means you only have to be on-site in Tulsa for three days for the entire class (the rest is online). I am teaching a class on Basic Christian Doctrine March 5-7, 2026. And I am teaching a class on Wesleyan Discipleship March 26-28, 2026. They are worth taking in their own rite. But they also meet ordination requirements for various denominations, including the Global Methodist Church’s new ordination requirement for a class in Wesleyan Discipleship. I love getting to teach from my research and publishing on Wesleyan small groups like the class and band meeting. And this class is not only about the ideas but equipping to do them. It is so fun! Don’t miss it. (For more information, click here, scroll down, and shoot me an email.)

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Underground Seminary: Love Goes First with Rev. Andrew Forrest

08 Wednesday Oct 2025

Posted by in Book Review, Christian Living, Ministry, Underground Seminary

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Underground Seminary is back! 

The first events we have done have been so fun! And I am more excited about this conversation than any that we’ve had yet. I can’t wait!

Francis Asbury statue at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK

What is Underground Seminary?

There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to in the church that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.

In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities that typically come alongside classes I am teaching for Asbury Theological Seminary. I’m calling these special events “Underground Seminary.”

Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain as much wisdom and experience as they can from as many different places as possible as they are prepared and equipped to lead.

I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.

Our next Underground Seminary meeting:

Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary on his new book Love Goes First.

Yesterday was the official release date for Love Goes First. I believe in the message of this book and I am really excited for this book to be out in the world. (If you can’t make it to this event, you should still buy the book!)

I wrote a review of the book, last week. Here is an excerpt from my review:

Here is the unique challenge facing the American church today: For the first time ever, we are faced with reaching a culture that has been exposed to the gospel and is largely built on Christian foundations but is now post-Christian. As Forrest puts it, “It is certainly nothing new for the church to be hated… but it is unprecedented for the church to be hated by a culture that once used to honor and respect it.” (8-9)

And so, Love Goes First is “about how we, as American Christians, can reach the people who believe we are the problem, those who hate us and all we stand for.” (7)

Here is the big idea of the book: 

“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.” (10)

Read the review here.

Andrew is a brilliant strategic thinker about the local church and its role in the world. He has boldness and courage that I admire. He is willing to do the deep work it takes to get to clarity about hard things and big ideas.

If you are a pastor or want to be a church leader, Andrew is someone you should learn from. He has a proven track record as a church planter, leader, and pastor.

To give just one example: In his first three years here at Asbury Church, in person attendance has increased by nearly 25%.

This Underground Seminary gives you the opportunity to hear from Andrew in a smaller more intimate setting than the places he typically speaks. I think this will be challenging, convicting, and fun.

How to join us:

This Underground Seminary will be Thursday November 6th from 12:00 – 2:30pm here at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. Those who register will receive lunch and a copy of Love Goes First. Registration is $10. You can register by emailing amiller@asburytulsa.org. You will receive details on the exact location after you register. Deadline to RSVP is October 30th. 

This event is sponsored by Asbury Church. This should be obvious, but lunch and a copy of the book will cost the church more than $10 per person – the book itself is currently $18.78 on Amazon. The point of having a cost of registration is that when people have skin in the game, they tend to follow through and show up. In other words, you can get a copy of the book for basically half price and a free lunch! The church is not making money off of this event. Rather, we are investing in you because we are committed to raising up the next generation of leaders for the church.

There is a lot of mystery and chance in the world of publishing. It is very difficult to predict the success of a new publication. I don’t know if Love Goes First will get the kind of boost needed for it to become a spectacular commercial success. I do know it is the rare book that is worthy of a wide reading. Love Goes First is on the short list of the most important books I’ve read in my ministry career. I think this book is going to be a catalyst for bringing together a new network of Christian leaders who are willing to step into the unknown and risk everything for the Gospel for such a time as this.

Let’s go!

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Raising Up Next-Gen Church Leaders

21 Friday Feb 2025

Posted by in Christian Living, Ministry, Teaching

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I’m trying to think more clearly about how to raise up the next generation of leaders for the church. It seems clear to me that things are shifting and changing, sometimes dramatically. Institutions are changing and sometimes failing. Key leaders are leaving the scene, sometimes because they have retired or died, and other times because a moral failing has been exposed.

I don’t have it figured out yet. But I want to start talking about it more.

My writing often comes from a burden to figure out what I think about something and then try to communicate it as clearly as I can. I think some of my best writing comes when there are two things working in me:

First, I notice that I am working over a problem in my mind and am working hard to get clear about what I think is at stake (something that seems important and complicated or confusing).

Second, I notice a sense of pressure to not talk about it. This is usually unspoken and intuitive on my part. This means I could be wrong, or I could be seeing things. The pressure to not talk about it can either be because it seems like everyone views something as settled, while I have questions or concerns. Or, silence could come from the sense that speaking out could be problematic in terms of upsetting people in power.

Here are two examples of writing that has come from this:

1. I urged churches to start reopening five months into the Covid-19 pandemic. 

2. I expressed my concerns with the proposal of United Methodist bishops to make affirmation or prohibition of same sex marriage dependent on the surrounding dominant culture. 

Neither of those posts are perfect. In rereading them today, I would say things differently in both. But they both helped me think more clearly about matters that were very important to me (and to the church I was part of) when I wrote them. I am proud of them because I believe the Lord used them to help people think more clearly and make hard decisions during very challenging circumstances.

If you aren’t familiar with my writing, these will give you a sense of it. I hope they show my commitment to telling the truth. Of course, I also make mistakes. One of things I think I have often done well is move a conversation forward and bring clarity where it has gotten bogged down or stuck.

So, I’ve been thinking about raising up the next generation of leaders for Jesus’s church.  I’ve been thinking about this longer than I usually think about the kinds of things I write about here. And to my own frustration, I don’t feel like I’ve made as much progress as I usually would have by this point.

I want to articulate why I think this it is hard. It is important to work to understand the moment in which we find ourselves. And I want to begin by naming two models that have been used to raise up the next generation of leaders for the church. I want to suggest that people in my networks have almost completely missed the importance of the second model. But first, why is this so hard to think through?

The church in the United States is experiencing major challenges due to massive shifts in the culture, academy, and the church herself.

Aaron Renn does a great job talking about the changes in the dominant culture and how it impacts the church. Check out his book Life in the Negative World [Affiliate link]. I also follow his work at aaronrenn.com.

The academy is also undergoing massive change, which includes theological education (the seminaries where pastors are trained). This would be another post, so I won’t unpack this further right now.

And finally, the church herself is undergoing dramatic change. I think most of the changes in the church come from the influence of the first two. Many large non-denominational and congregational churches have also been impacted by the fall from grace of senior leaders of these churches. This has happened enough over the past few years, many feel uneasy in these kinds of churches, even if their own local church has not been directly impacted.

Here is an image I have used to describe what I think is happening:

Tectonic plates are shifting in the culture. When tectonic plates shift, there are earthquakes. There is rumbling. There is shaking. Often major edifices are damaged or even collapse when tectonic plates shift.

I think we are seeing this kind of major disruption and change in the church today.

There have been (at least) two major models for raising up leaders for the church.

I’m sure much more nuance could be added here, so feel free to fill this out in your own thinking or experience. The point here is to get some things in place in order to move forward.

My own experience was largely with the first model. I will call it the ecclesial bureaucracy model. I’ll use my experience to explain it:

I received a calling to ordained ministry through a short-term mission trip to Mexico when I was a junior in college. One short week changed my life in so many ways. By the end of the week, I had a deep sense that there was nothing more fulfilling I could do than give my life in service to the church, by the grace of God. I remember time and time again being stunned by how joyful it was to serve the Lord through the church.

I knew nothing. I had no clue what I was getting myself into. And I made a lot of mistakes along the way.

But there were also a lot of things that were clear and decisions I didn’t really have to make. I was a United Methodist and didn’t question whether I should pursue ordination in the UMC or not.

The blessing of this was that the path forward was clear. The obvious next step was to attend seminary after I graduated from college. I began having conversations with the senior pastor of the church I was attending, who was generous with his time and wisdom. I formally applied to become a “certified candidate” during my first year of seminary.

I did not have a long-term relationship with the same local church throughout my time in the ordination process. I moved quite a bit from my freshman year of high school through seminary.

So to summarize: Once I felt a calling to ministry, I basically got on a moving walkway where the next step was fairly clear. And if I was approved for ordination by denominational authorities, I would also be appointed to pastor in a local church. If approved for ordination, I would, literally, be guaranteed an appointment (a pastoral position in a local church).

I think there are strengths and weaknesses of this model. And they could be done better or worse than it was done in the UMC when I went through the process. When I was teaching United Methodist polity, I used to tell students that the number one value of the UMC ordination process appeared to me to be persistence. If you kept going, you would almost certainly be ordained. 

(This was most evident to me when someone in the conference I was ordained in clearly revealed that they did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. They were not discontinued or removed from the process at that point. They were deferred and had to rewrite and repeat the interview process the next year. They were then approved and ordained. Is it more likely this person’s views on the bodily resurrection of Jesus changed, or that they found a more acceptable way to present (or cover up) their heretical views?)

The second model I’ll call the apprenticeship model. It was not my experience, so I can’t give as much detail. I think this approach is most common in non-denominational and congregational church polities. For this reason, I also suspect it is less uniform and more organic and relational.

This one is pretty self-explanatory. A person is raised up for leadership in the church by someone who is recognized as an excellent leader in the church. Preparation for ministry comes by being invited to get closer to the senior leader with behind-the-scenes access. Over time, they are given opportunities to lead with the senior leader’s oversight and feedback. And eventually, they are released to lead on their own, though likely with continued oversight or spiritual covering.

Sometimes a person in this system will replace the senior leader when they step down. Depending on the system, they might move to a different context taking on significant leadership responsibilities.

This model is highly relational. The person who is being raised up for leadership in the church spends significant time with the person who is discipling, mentoring, or apprenticing them. It is inefficient in the sense that it requires proximity and a lot of time together. It is also driven by the needs of the person being raised up and so is very contextual and responsive to where they are and how they need to grow. It is also inefficient because one person cannot have this kind of relationship with an unlimited number of people.

Another way to think of this model is to think of Robert Coleman’s Master Plan of Evangelism and other relational discipleship making tools. These are usually focused on discipleship as the goal for all who come to faith in Jesus Christ. It is not surprising that those who are raised up to lead in these kinds of contexts continue to be raised up to lead in this way.

I suspect that very often a sense of calling to lead in the church comes within the context of these discipling relationships.

During the season when I first began to feel a tug to rethink some of my assumptions about how to best raise up leaders for the church, I started getting to know a non-denominational church near where I lived. The folks in this church were very gracious to me and the senior pastor met with me. I wanted to ask him two questions in particular:

How did you get to be in your position? I remember the answer, though it was more fleshed out than just this, because I had heard it from others in the same church family: I lived in Buddy’s basement. 

In other words, the founding pastor invited him to come closer, literally into his home, for a season. And he poured into him and raised him up.

The second question was: Is there anything that I do that can help you and those you are raising up? We developed a degree at Asbury Theological Seminary that came directly out of my conversations with this pastor and the pastor of another large non-denominational church at another place I taught. (Send me an email [scroll down] if you want to know more about it.)

I think both models would be improved by the other.

Non-denominational and congregational churches that don’t require any formal education outside of themselves make themselves vulnerable.

Large denominations that have heavily bureaucratic ordination processes have greater risk in my view.

My working hypothesis is that the most effective pastors in the United States at present came up through more of the apprenticeship model than the ecclesial bureaucracy model. My experience is that almost all of them end up pursuing a seminary education, but it usually comes after they have been leading in meaningful ways in the local church.

So, Now What?

For most established leaders reading this, the action step is most likely to look for people to bring in closer to walk with you and build them up. One of the problems with bureaucratic approaches to ordination is that they are so depersonalized. People don’t grow in self-awareness because the kind of one-on-one conversations that happen in an apprenticeship don’t happen nearly as often.

Here is what I am seeing: I believe the church, particularly healthy large congregations with stable leadership and deep roots, is only going to be more important going forward for the work of raising up leaders for the church. All churches are important in this work. The local church is the ordinary context for hearing a calling to ministry. I think larger churches just have the capacity and the resources to invest in the next generation for their own sake.

I think large churches will develop coaching trees like Nick Saban did at Alabama. People will serve for a season in these churches and experience accelerated growth in a host of ways in these contexts. Some, who can joyfully stay long-term in an associate type of role, will stay for decades. But most will serve for a season, be built up, equipped, and sent out to lead with excellence.

And I have a feeling this will be less dependent on denominational affiliation than it has ever been in the history of Christianity in the United States.

This vision excites me because Asbury Church (where I am) is the kind of church that can do an excellent job of apprenticing people to be excellent leaders.

Asbury is a conservative evangelical church from the Wesleyan theological heritage that averages about 2,500 in person in weekly worship at one campus. At Asbury, intentional and strategic attention is given to the culture of the church. Asbury not only has a great culture, but the senior leaders can tell you why they are doing what they are doing and how to work to set, shift, or move culture. This is so important! And there is a clear emphasis on discipleship. As with our work to build and maintain a great culture, the church can articulate a coherent vision for how we make disciples.

And one of the most unique things about Asbury Church, within the context of this post, is that Asbury has a passion for education. Asbury hosts the Asbury Theological Seminary Tulsa Extension Site on its campus. So, a person preparing to become a pastor could come to Asbury Church and be in seminary here at the same time.

Asbury Church’s commitment to education is also evident in its decision to launch Asbury Classical School this year.

One of the saddest things to me about my time in theological education has been seeing the negative impact a seminary tends to have on local churches in the immediate geographical area of the seminary. At a previous institution, someone commented on the “dead zone” that surrounded the seminary. 

What a gift that I get to teach at a seminary whose mission and values I agree with at a church I am proud to be part of and that I am confident will bless my students.

If you, or someone you know, is wrestling with a calling to ministry, I would love to connect with you. Maybe you should move to Tulsa and see for yourself. I am learning more and more that proximity and time within a relational atmosphere are crucial to raising up the next generation of leaders for the church.

I can’t wait to see what happens next!

Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.