Tag Archives: Underground Seminary

The Role of Pastors: Honesty and Emotional Intelligence

05 Wednesday Nov 2025

Posted by in Life, Ministry, Teaching, Underground Seminary

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A quick update this week and a short thought I wanted to share:

My CH501 Church History One Hybrid Is Meeting in Tulsa This Week!

Francis Asbury statue at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK

This week is my favorite week of the semester. The students for my CH501 Church History One class are coming to Tulsa for our in-person intensive. We will have 20 hours of class time together over 2.5 days. (We will also have an Underground Seminary event with Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s Senior Pastor, this Thursday right before class begins. This is going to be such a blessing to students! Details here.)

I work hard to set a healthy culture that is open to the person and work of the Holy Spirit. I wrote about exactly what I do for that here. I think this work has been the most significant growth I’ve experienced during my time in Tulsa so far. Culture is everything!

Much of the work that I am doing is to enable the class together to be open to what God wants to do in our midst while we are together. Because I have seen the Lord do cool things in these hybrids, I carry a sense of anticipation and expectation for these classes when they meet. I also experience a tension when I hold space for the Lord to move. I often have a sense of what the Lord wants to do and also a profound awareness that I am not in control of what the Holy Spirit does or whether people are open to responding. By the way, I think holding this tension is one of the hardest and most important things you do in ministry. 

All this is to say, I would be grateful for your prayers for this class. Please ask the Lord to enable me to think clearly, teach faithfully, hear what the Lord wants to do, and respond accordingly. Please pray for students to have safe and smooth travel to Tulsa. And pray for all of us to be fully present to Jesus during our time together. Thank you!

A Thought I often Have about the Difference between Pastors and Physicians

I am interested in the different ways various generations experience the world. This would quickly become a different post, but one way I have been marked through the culture, church, and leadership around me that I experienced is a hunger for leaders in the church who tell the truth with conviction and appropriate emotional intelligence.

I am not talking about saying a hard truth to someone in a way that is callous and hurtful for no good reason. And I am not encouraging saying something with the intention of hurting them or giving offense. That is not what I mean here.

I’d like to share an image I often use in teaching to illustrate what I’m talking about: the difference between pastors and physicians.

Let’s start with physicians:

If I go to the doctor and a test returns very bad news, what happens?

The doctor will tell me the truth in a straightforward and clear way, every single time. 

In fact, if the doctor hid a diagnosis to protect my feelings, they could be sued for malpractice.

I am not a medical doctor. But I imagine that having to tell someone that they have inoperable cancer is very difficult. The response the patient has to receiving the news is hard to watch. And though the doctor has not caused the diagnosis, they are the one who is making it known.

But doctors tell the truth, whether they like the truth they have to share or not.

Now, consider pastors:

If a pastor is engaging with someone who is in denial about the impact their beliefs or behavior is having on their life, what do they do?

Well, it seems to me this varies quite a bit.

There are so many different areas of this we could explore. Pastoral care is subjective in a way that a cancer diagnosis or lab result is not, for example. I want to lay the ambiguity aside for the moment. I want to talk about when a pastor knows in their gut something about the person in front of them.

I know myself the temptation to not tell the truth about what I see because I am worried about their feelings. They won’t like what I say. Or, they won’t like me because I made them feel bad.

One common image used to describe pastoral work in the previous eras is “the cure of souls.” If pastors are unwilling to tell the truth to people they are pastoring, their work to cure souls is certain to fail.

This is hard work. I am not saying it is easy. But it is essential for the future health of the church.

I am asking the Lord to raise up a generation of leaders for the church who are so desperate to see people healed and made well through faith in Christ that they become more like physicians.

May the Lord give his shepherds strength and courage to call people to repentance when it is needed, so they can turn around, fight against sin and Satan, and find fresh victory in Jesus.

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Underground Seminary: Love Goes First with Rev. Andrew Forrest

08 Wednesday Oct 2025

Posted by in Book Review, Christian Living, Ministry, Underground Seminary

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Underground Seminary is back! 

The first events we have done have been so fun! And I am more excited about this conversation than any that we’ve had yet. I can’t wait!

Francis Asbury statue at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK

What is Underground Seminary?

There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to in the church that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.

In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities that typically come alongside classes I am teaching for Asbury Theological Seminary. I’m calling these special events “Underground Seminary.”

Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain as much wisdom and experience as they can from as many different places as possible as they are prepared and equipped to lead.

I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.

Our next Underground Seminary meeting:

Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary on his new book Love Goes First.

Yesterday was the official release date for Love Goes First. I believe in the message of this book and I am really excited for this book to be out in the world. (If you can’t make it to this event, you should still buy the book!)

I wrote a review of the book, last week. Here is an excerpt from my review:

Here is the unique challenge facing the American church today: For the first time ever, we are faced with reaching a culture that has been exposed to the gospel and is largely built on Christian foundations but is now post-Christian. As Forrest puts it, “It is certainly nothing new for the church to be hated… but it is unprecedented for the church to be hated by a culture that once used to honor and respect it.” (8-9)

And so, Love Goes First is “about how we, as American Christians, can reach the people who believe we are the problem, those who hate us and all we stand for.” (7)

Here is the big idea of the book: 

“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.” (10)

Read the review here.

Andrew is a brilliant strategic thinker about the local church and its role in the world. He has boldness and courage that I admire. He is willing to do the deep work it takes to get to clarity about hard things and big ideas.

If you are a pastor or want to be a church leader, Andrew is someone you should learn from. He has a proven track record as a church planter, leader, and pastor.

To give just one example: In his first three years here at Asbury Church, in person attendance has increased by nearly 25%.

This Underground Seminary gives you the opportunity to hear from Andrew in a smaller more intimate setting than the places he typically speaks. I think this will be challenging, convicting, and fun.

How to join us:

This Underground Seminary will be Thursday November 6th from 12:00 – 2:30pm here at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. Those who register will receive lunch and a copy of Love Goes First. Registration is $10. You can register by emailing amiller@asburytulsa.org. You will receive details on the exact location after you register. Deadline to RSVP is October 30th. 

This event is sponsored by Asbury Church. This should be obvious, but lunch and a copy of the book will cost the church more than $10 per person – the book itself is currently $18.78 on Amazon. The point of having a cost of registration is that when people have skin in the game, they tend to follow through and show up. In other words, you can get a copy of the book for basically half price and a free lunch! The church is not making money off of this event. Rather, we are investing in you because we are committed to raising up the next generation of leaders for the church.

There is a lot of mystery and chance in the world of publishing. It is very difficult to predict the success of a new publication. I don’t know if Love Goes First will get the kind of boost needed for it to become a spectacular commercial success. I do know it is the rare book that is worthy of a wide reading. Love Goes First is on the short list of the most important books I’ve read in my ministry career. I think this book is going to be a catalyst for bringing together a new network of Christian leaders who are willing to step into the unknown and risk everything for the Gospel for such a time as this.

Let’s go!

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Life Update and Upcoming Opportunities with Me in Tulsa

20 Thursday Mar 2025

Posted by in Life, Ministry, Sermons, Teaching, Underground Seminary

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I had the privilege of preaching here at Asbury Church last week. At Asbury, we like to say that we are a Bible reading church. And that literally means we are committed to reading Scripture together. We are currently reading through the Gospel of John. Our senior pastor, Rev. Andrew Forrest, writes a daily Bible reading guide that helps us work through the selected book of the Bible we are reading. You can check it out here. (You should also visit his website. You can subscribe there to get the daily readings sent to your inbox.)

When Andrew asked me to preach on John 7, I was immediately grabbed by verses 16-17:

So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.” (ESV)

The first time I read it, I just thought: Jesus is saying that if you want to know if his teaching is true, you have to follow it to find out. I sat with that text for weeks (a luxury those of you who preach weekly don’t have). I had a lot of fun with this sermon, particularly with the main illustration, which I think connected better than any illustration I’ve ever used.

You can check it out here.

The next two weeks are my favorite time of the semester. I will have students in Tulsa for my Basic Christian Doctrine hybrid and my Theology of John Wesley hybrid. I get so excited having students come in for these classes. They are like retreats where we get to go deep in the content for the course. More importantly, we get to be present to the Holy Spirit and allow him to lead, direct, connect, and build community in our midst. It is so fun!

If you’re interested in seminary, you should check out Asbury Theological Seminary. You should also move to Tulsa and take classes here.

P.S. Speaking of moving to Tulsa: Asbury Church is launching a Fellowship Program. If you are interested in moving to Tulsa to learn, grow, and be equipped to lead in the church at a conservative, evangelical church from the Wesleyan theological tradition, get ready to apply. (For context: Asbury Church is averaging 2,500+ in in-person [not online] weekly worship attendance.) More details soon!

P.P.S. Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, is leading the next Underground Seminary event. It will be Sunday April 6th after worship from 12:30-3:00pm. The church will provide lunch we would love to have you experience worship with us at 11am. It is also fine if you come from worship at your own church, if you’re in the area. Andrew is going to talk about “The Most Important Distinction in the American Church Today.” I’ve talked with him quite a bit about this material and it is essential for church leaders to be wrestling with. If you misdiagnose the moment we are in, your strategy for evangelism and discipleship will not work. RSVP to Laura.Wilkie@asburyseminary.edu by March 27th. More information on this event in last week’s post.

Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

The Most Important Distinction in the American Church Today: The Next Underground Seminary

12 Wednesday Mar 2025

Posted by in Christian Living, Ministry, Teaching, Underground Seminary

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We are going to have back-to-back Underground Seminary meetings here in Tulsa (March 27 and April 6) and I am pumped!

What is Underground Seminary?

There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to in the church that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.

In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities that typically come alongside classes I am teaching for Asbury Theological Seminary. I’m calling these special events “Underground Seminary.”

Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain as much wisdom and experience as they can from as many different places as possible as they are prepared and equipped to lead.

I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.

Our next Underground Seminary meeting:

Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary. It will be focused on the ways dramatic changes in the broader culture have impacted the church and radically changed the context in which we seek to share the gospel. Andrew will share a diagnosis of the problem facing the church and point to solutions for a way forward.

I’ll let Andrew share more about what he wants to do in this workshop in his own words:

The most important thing for church leaders to know in 2025 is that we are living in what Aaron Renn has called “the negative world.”

Things are different these days. Over the last decade, American culture has changed in ways that have become more hostile to the church and the claims of Christ, the result of which is that a majority of those who hold the keys to power in American society—those in politics, media, and education—have a negative view of Christianity. In light of these changes, I believe that the most important distinction in the American church today is not in the ways we normally categorize the church. The most important distinction in the American church today is between those who recognize we live in “the negative world” and those who have not yet accepted this fact.

This distinction matters because it directly affects our strategies for carrying out the Great Commission. Our mission from Jesus has not changed, and our responsibility to evangelize cannot be avoided. But the strategies we employ to complete that mission need to be constantly shifting, depending on the cultural context. The problem we face today is that many of our strategies for evangelism were developed in and for a previous cultural context, one that was largely positive about Christianity and that saw the Christian faith either something good or at best neutral. But that culture is gone, and it’s time for new strategies. If we keep running our plays out of the old playbook, we are going to lose the game.

I want to talk frankly about how we can lead the church to not only survive in negative world but thrive.  I’m interested in talking to people who are hungry to make a difference and who are not satisfied to keep running plays out of an outmoded playbook.

Andrew is a brilliant strategic thinker about the local church and its role in the world. He has boldness and courage that I admire. He is willing to do the deep work it takes to get to clarity about hard things and big ideas. This is going to be a challenging and convicting conversation. And I think it is going to be a lot of fun. (If you want to know more about “Negative World” check out Aaron Renn’s book. The link is an Amazon affiliate link, which helps support my work.)

How to join us:

This Underground Seminary will be Sunday April 6th following worship Sunday morning. Lunch will be provided, and we will conclude by 3pm. In order to ensure that there is food and space for everyone, you need to RSVP if you would like to attend. We will send the location for the meeting to you after you RSVP by emailing Laura.Wilkie@asburyseminary.edu. Deadline to RSVP is March 28th. 

P.S. It is not too late to register for the March 27th Underground Seminary with Rodney Adams, which I’m playfully calling “What They Don’t Teach You in Seminary.” Details here.

Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.