A quick update this week and a short thought I wanted to share:
My CH501 Church History One Hybrid Is Meeting in Tulsa This Week!
This week is my favorite week of the semester. The students for my CH501 Church History One class are coming to Tulsa for our in-person intensive. We will have 20 hours of class time together over 2.5 days. (We will also have an Underground Seminary event with Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s Senior Pastor, this Thursday right before class begins. This is going to be such a blessing to students! Details here.)
I work hard to set a healthy culture that is open to the person and work of the Holy Spirit. I wrote about exactly what I do for that here. I think this work has been the most significant growth I’ve experienced during my time in Tulsa so far. Culture is everything!
Much of the work that I am doing is to enable the class together to be open to what God wants to do in our midst while we are together. Because I have seen the Lord do cool things in these hybrids, I carry a sense of anticipation and expectation for these classes when they meet. I also experience a tension when I hold space for the Lord to move. I often have a sense of what the Lord wants to do and also a profound awareness that I am not in control of what the Holy Spirit does or whether people are open to responding. By the way, I think holding this tension is one of the hardest and most important things you do in ministry.
All this is to say, I would be grateful for your prayers for this class. Please ask the Lord to enable me to think clearly, teach faithfully, hear what the Lord wants to do, and respond accordingly. Please pray for students to have safe and smooth travel to Tulsa. And pray for all of us to be fully present to Jesus during our time together. Thank you!
A Thought I often Have about the Difference between Pastors and Physicians
I am interested in the different ways various generations experience the world. This would quickly become a different post, but one way I have been marked through the culture, church, and leadership around me that I experienced is a hunger for leaders in the church who tell the truth with conviction and appropriate emotional intelligence.
I am not talking about saying a hard truth to someone in a way that is callous and hurtful for no good reason. And I am not encouraging saying something with the intention of hurting them or giving offense. That is not what I mean here.
I’d like to share an image I often use in teaching to illustrate what I’m talking about: the difference between pastors and physicians.
Let’s start with physicians:
If I go to the doctor and a test returns very bad news, what happens?
The doctor will tell me the truth in a straightforward and clear way, every single time.
In fact, if the doctor hid a diagnosis to protect my feelings, they could be sued for malpractice.
I am not a medical doctor. But I imagine that having to tell someone that they have inoperable cancer is very difficult. The response the patient has to receiving the news is hard to watch. And though the doctor has not caused the diagnosis, they are the one who is making it known.
But doctors tell the truth, whether they like the truth they have to share or not.
Now, consider pastors:
If a pastor is engaging with someone who is in denial about the impact their beliefs or behavior is having on their life, what do they do?
Well, it seems to me this varies quite a bit.
There are so many different areas of this we could explore. Pastoral care is subjective in a way that a cancer diagnosis or lab result is not, for example. I want to lay the ambiguity aside for the moment. I want to talk about when a pastor knows in their gut something about the person in front of them.
I know myself the temptation to not tell the truth about what I see because I am worried about their feelings. They won’t like what I say. Or, they won’t like me because I made them feel bad.
One common image used to describe pastoral work in the previous eras is “the cure of souls.” If pastors are unwilling to tell the truth to people they are pastoring, their work to cure souls is certain to fail.
This is hard work. I am not saying it is easy. But it is essential for the future health of the church.
I am asking the Lord to raise up a generation of leaders for the church who are so desperate to see people healed and made well through faith in Christ that they become more like physicians.
May the Lord give his shepherds strength and courage to call people to repentance when it is needed, so they can turn around, fight against sin and Satan, and find fresh victory in Jesus.
Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.
One of the things I have really appreciated about my time in Tulsa has been learning about the importance of culture in an organization. I knew quite a bit in theory about this before coming to Asbury Church. But I did not have firsthand experience of an organization intentionally working on setting a healthy culture with excellence and experiencing breakthrough like I have here.
I’ve experienced this in a handful of ways. One of my favorites is the way Andrew Forrest, Asbury’s Senior Pastor, and Rodney Adams, Asbury’s Executive Director, develop and use punchy short phrases over and over again that point to and motivate desired outcomes within the staff and the Church. I’ll share some of these here from time to time because I think they will be helpful to you. Here is the first one:
“At Asbury, we do the common uncommonly well.”
This is a great phrase for so many reasons. Here are a few:
1. It changes the way we think about the things we commonly do.
There is a tendency to think that because something is common, we already know how to do it with excellence. But that is not the case. In fact, the common is often done exceptionally poorly. And that is a disaster for the culture of any organization!
Can I give you an example?
Since moving to Tulsa, I occasionally lead the first part of our worship service. When I do this, my job is to kickstart the service with appropriate tone and confidence.
If you have been to any worship service, they all have this in common. There is some moment that starts the worship service. And most of the time there is not much forethought given to that moment.
But it sets the tone for the entire service! It is crazy to not practice, rehearse, and prepare with uncommon effort for this moment.
And so, I have practiced over and over and over again in my office, in front of the mirror, and in front of colleagues. And I still have room to get better.
Boy has this been humbling.
As I’ve tried to do the common welcome and greeting uncommonly well, I have made mistakes. I once showed our staff a recording of a welcome and greeting at our Thursday evening service when I forgot to introduce myself, take off my name tag, and empty my pockets. I then showed the recording of the 11am Sunday service where I had ironed out these mistakes to illustrate the difference practice makes.
Working to do the common welcome and greeting to a worship service uncommonly well has been difficult and challenging.
And it has been SO FUN! I have really enjoyed being part of a culture of excellence and seeing myself improve in a basic skill for pastoral ministry. Growth is fun.
2. This phrase makes it obvious that we are a place that expects hard work, consistent effort, and commitment to improve.
Doing basic things with excellence takes work. It takes effort. It takes hunger and commitment to grow. It requires a willingness to receive feedback and be coached up.
And, guess what?
These are also all qualities we want to see embedded in the culture at Asbury Church.
3. Doing the common uncommonly well gives everyone the opportunity to focus on doing their work with excellence.
In church work, the Sunday morning worship service is the most important part of the week. It’s true. But this can also lead people to thinking excellence is only required at the most public facing and visible thing happening on Sunday morning, such as the music and the sermon.
Emphasizing doing the common uncommonly well helps everyone be engaged in doing their work with excellence.
Am I currently working to do the basic functions of my job with excellence? Even asking that question almost always surfaces areas where I can grow as a leader.
4. This phrase creates a disincentive to join the team at Asbury, or remain on it, if someone does not want to work with excellence.
I love the way doing the common uncommonly well puts the focus on a positive target. And so this last one may initially seem negative or off-putting to you. However, another thing we often say at Asbury is, “clarity is kindness.” We are pursuing excellence. We expect everyone on our staff to do the common uncommonly well. Therefore, I see it as a kindness to folks considering joining our team to make this expectation clear.
One of the reasons working on the culture of an organization matters is because different places have different cultures. I love being at Asbury Church! But Asbury may not be someone else’s cup of tea.
That is ok!
It just means Asbury won’t be the right place for them to work.
I am thankful for the ways Andrew and Rodney are intentionally bringing clarity to the staff at Asbury Church here in Tulsa, OK.
And I have found it energizing to think intentionally about the ways I can do the common uncommonly well in my work. Growth and improvement are fun. And I always have room for more of both in my work.
Next Step: What is one area in your current work where deciding to do basic work with greater intentionality and excellence would make a significant impact? Start with a basic and simple step and build from there.
Here is an example of a next step from Asbury:
The first practical step toward doing the common uncommonly well here was a focus on email, especially subject lines. Andrew took time in several monthly staff meetings to explain this emphasis and then walk through how to improve use of email, especially writing subject lines that provide clear communication to the sender, especially when they are for internal work at the church. Immediately after that meeting, I started thinking about the purpose of an email subject line differently, and working on writing them with greater intentionality.
P.S. Have you registered for our Underground Seminary event yet? The deadline to register is October 30th. This is an opportunity to hear Asbury Church’s Senior Pastor, Rev. Andrew Forrest, talk about his new book Love Goes First. This is one of the best books I’ve read in the past decade. If you are in the area, you don’t want to miss this. Register now before time runs out. Details here.
P.P.S. I am teaching two classes at Asbury Seminary in Tulsa this coming Spring. Both classes are hybrid classes, which means you only have to be on-site in Tulsa for three days for the entire class (the rest is online). I am teaching a class on Basic Christian Doctrine March 5-7, 2026. And I am teaching a class on Wesleyan Discipleship March 26-28, 2026. They are worth taking in their own rite. But they also meet ordination requirements for various denominations, including the Global Methodist Church’s new ordination requirement for a class in Wesleyan Discipleship. I love getting to teach from my research and publishing on Wesleyan small groups like the class and band meeting. And this class is not only about the ideas but equipping to do them. It is so fun! Don’t miss it. (For more information, click here, scroll down, and shoot me an email.)
Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.
The first events we have done have been so fun! And I am more excited about this conversation than any that we’ve had yet. I can’t wait!
What is Underground Seminary?
There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to in the church that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.
In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities that typically come alongside classes I am teaching for Asbury Theological Seminary. I’m calling these special events “Underground Seminary.”
Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain as much wisdom and experience as they can from as many different places as possible as they are prepared and equipped to lead.
I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.
Our next Underground Seminary meeting:
Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary on his new book Love Goes First.
Yesterday was the official release date for Love Goes First. I believe in the message of this book and I am really excited for this book to be out in the world. (If you can’t make it to this event, you should still buy the book!)
I wrote a review of the book, last week. Here is an excerpt from my review:
Here is the unique challenge facing the American church today: For the first time ever, we are faced with reaching a culture that has been exposed to the gospel and is largely built on Christian foundations but is now post-Christian. As Forrest puts it, “It is certainly nothing new for the church to be hated… but it is unprecedented for the church to be hated by a culture that once used to honor and respect it.” (8-9)
And so, Love Goes First is “about how we, as American Christians, can reach the people who believe we are the problem, those who hate us and all we stand for.” (7)
Here is the big idea of the book:
“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.” (10)
Andrew is a brilliant strategic thinker about the local church and its role in the world. He has boldness and courage that I admire. He is willing to do the deep work it takes to get to clarity about hard things and big ideas.
If you are a pastor or want to be a church leader, Andrew is someone you should learn from. He has a proven track record as a church planter, leader, and pastor.
To give just one example: In his first three years here at Asbury Church, in person attendance has increased by nearly 25%.
This Underground Seminary gives you the opportunity to hear from Andrew in a smaller more intimate setting than the places he typically speaks. I think this will be challenging, convicting, and fun.
How to join us:
This Underground Seminary will be Thursday November 6th from 12:00 – 2:30pm here at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. Those who register will receive lunch and a copy of Love Goes First. Registration is $10. You can register by emailing amiller@asburytulsa.org. You will receive details on the exact location after you register. Deadline to RSVP is October 30th.
This event is sponsored by Asbury Church. This should be obvious, but lunch and a copy of the book will cost the church more than $10 per person – the book itself is currently $18.78 on Amazon. The point of having a cost of registration is that when people have skin in the game, they tend to follow through and show up. In other words, you can get a copy of the book for basically half price and a free lunch! The church is not making money off of this event. Rather, we are investing in you because we are committed to raising up the next generation of leaders for the church.
There is a lot of mystery and chance in the world of publishing. It is very difficult to predict the success of a new publication. I don’t know if Love Goes First will get the kind of boost needed for it to become a spectacular commercial success. I do know it is the rare book that is worthy of a wide reading. Love Goes First is on the short list of the most important books I’ve read in my ministry career. I think this book is going to be a catalyst for bringing together a new network of Christian leaders who are willing to step into the unknown and risk everything for the Gospel for such a time as this.
Let’s go!
Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.
Love Goes First offers penetrating cultural analysis. Andrew does the best job of anyone I’ve seen of providing a roadmap for the times in which we are living. I have read a fair amount of cultural analysis that leaves me feeling discouraged, pessimistic, and hopeless. Basically, the feeling I’m left with is: Why even try?
Almost as bad, may worse actually, is cultural analysis that is thin, overly optimistic, and obviously in denial about the seriousness of the challenges we are facing.
More importantly than offering an accurate diagnosis of where we are, Andrew points us to the way forward. On the one hand, Andrew is honest about the challenges facing the church, which can be sobering. On the other hand, he refuses to be a victim of circumstances beyond his control.
I have seen quite a bit of hand wringing about problems facing American Christians in our cultural moment. I have not seen nearly as much positive and proactive guidance on how to move forward that does not somehow involve putting our heads in the sand.
Here is the unique challenge facing the American church today: For the first time ever, we are faced with reaching a culture that has been exposed to the gospel and is largely built on Christian foundations but is now post-Christian. As Forrest puts it, “It is certainly nothing new for the church to be hated… but it is unprecedented for the church to be hated by a culture that once used to honor and respect it.” (8-9)
And so, Love Goes First is “about how we, as American Christians, can reach the people who believe we are the problem, those who hate us and all we stand for.” (7)
Here is the big idea of the book that Andrew unpacks over the following chapters:
“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.” (10)
Some people will miss just how profound that statement is because they will think they already know it. So many of the most important truths in life are obvious when they are stated, but their deep impact comes from the commitment to live according to reality.
It is living according to the way things are that is difficult and potent.
“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.”
This requires willingness to be rejected. It requires willingness to be hurt emotionally, perhaps even physically.
Andrew is a wordsmith. And this book has so many truth bombs sprinkled throughout. Here are a few:
“Young people interviewed on the street might applaud our accommodationist values, but they would never come to our churches.” (48)
“Accommodation would mean a church without distinctiveness, judgment would mean a church without success, withdrawal would mean a church without purpose. What do we do now? Our only option is to move forward…. to go first.” (68)
“One of the great problems with contemporary higher education is that our young people are being permanently infantilized because we are teaching them to prioritize feelings above facts, a manner of instruction that will ultimately benefit neither them nor us.” (77)
“Going first as I use the phrase is not about you at all: It’s about the other.” (116)
“The Bible’s understanding of love is exactly opposite to that of the world.” (135)
“Going first comes with a cost. The love of God, though freely given, was indescribably costly to give. The same is true for us – yes, going first has the power to change the world, but it is going to cost us everything.” (179)
“If you decide to go first, you will get hurt. It will sting. You’ll be misunderstood.” (187)
These quotes give you a taste of the seriousness of this book. Andrew is not playing games. He is not tickling ears. This book is a product of years of leadership in the church and reflection on how fast things have changes over the past decade or so.
Love Goes First is the battle plan for how Christians can turn the tide in a time of increased hostility and even persecution in our day. The book does not offer wishful thinking for people who just want everything to get better without having any skin in the game or having to risk anything.
My prayer is that Love Goes First will serve as a wakeup call to the American Church. My experience in my own part of the American church has been so insular, petty, and obsessed with denominational fighting that I think the enemy has been using it to keep the church focused on itself and distracted from its central mission.
In all times and all places, the church is called to reach everyone, everywhere, and teach them everything Jesus has taught us. (This is how Andrew paraphrased the Great Commission [Matthew 28:16-20] in his sermon this weekend, the first in a sermon series on Love Goes First. It was fantastic. You should watch it.)
How are we doing with making disciples of Jesus Christ?
In my experience, every church in the United States knows that their mission is to make disciples of Jesus Christ. And yet, almost no churches know how to actually do this.
We need to recalibrate the activities that happen in the church and ask ourselves: Is this helping the people who participate take the next step in their faith in Jesus? Is this helping someone move from considering the claims of the gospel of Jesus Christ to faith in him? Is this helping someone with new faith in Jesus become closer to Jesus? Is this helping someone who is growing closer to Jesus learn to put Jesus at the very center of their lives and become a mature committed follower who is willing to risk everything for faithfulness to Christ?
Love Goes First is not a discipleship handbook. It is more like someone pulling the fire alarm. The building is on fire. We’ve been so numbed and complacent, we’ve fallen asleep. I believe the Lord is waking the American church from its slumber. And I think Forrest’s book is one of the ways he is doing that.
I’d like to offer a personal word about Andrew Forrest. I believe Andrew is the best preacher of his generation. He is a bold and courageous leader. He is an exceptional pastor. I’ve known Andrew for 17 years. We met during my first year in the PhD program at SMU when he was working on his MDiv. Our sons were born within a few weeks of each other while we were in Dallas. My wife and I were part of the launch team for the church Andrew and his wife led in East Dallas for more than a decade. Andrew and I were in an accountability group together for several years.
From 2011 to 2023, I moved 4 times. During those years, Andrew was a faithful friend. In August of 2022 Andrew became the senior pastor of the church my parents had been attending for more than a decade, Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. Andrew came to Asbury at a difficult time in my life. My mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer in the Fall of 2022 and she died in early 2023. Prior to my mom’s illness, I was in the midst of the most challenging season in work and ministry I have ever experienced. Andrew’s kindness and concern for me since we met in 2011 has been remarkable and consistent.
The generosity of Asbury Church made it possible for my family to move to Tulsa and begin work at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the seminary’s Tulsa Extension Site. Working for Andrew at Asbury Church has been so fun! I have learned so much.
By the way, Andrew writes regularly at his own website. You should check it out.
Love Goes First is an excellent book. It stands on its own. You don’t have to know the author to read it and benefit from it. However, it is a particular blessing to me to know the author of this book and be able to enthusiastically commend Andrew to you as much as the content of the book itself.
You should buy a copy of Love Goes First now. Read it. Talk about it with your staff, your community, your family, and your friends. It officially releases on October 7th, one week from today. Pre-order it now.
I don’t know what is going to happen in the American church. Only the Lord knows. But I am sure that we must follow the example of our Lord and go first in love to a world that is broken, hurting, and angry.
Even if it costs us everything.
Love Goes First is a prophetic word for such a time as this. I hope you will check it out!
[Full disclosure: Andrew is also my boss. He did not ask me to write this review. I am writing it solely because I believe this book will help you if you are a leader in the church or seeking to grow in your faith in Jesus.]
Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.
I have been waiting to share this with you. I am so pumped!
With the blessing of the leadership at Asbury Church, I am starting a Fellowship Program. We will hire two Fellows, which will be full-time paid positions, with benefits, starting this August.
For years, I have had a growing burden to build something that will help raise up the next generation of leaders for the church. I want to build what I would have wanted when I was just getting started in ministry. I was so hungry for mentors and had the hardest time finding them when I was starting out in ministry.
The Asbury Fellowship Program will be a blessing to the Fellows. The purpose of the Fellowship Program is not to bring people to Asbury Church to serve us. Rather, the purpose is to bring Fellows to Asbury Church so we can serve them.
That does not mean the Fellowship Program will be easy. Growth and development can, at least at times, be painful. The Fellowship Program will be an intentional season of accelerated growth, where Fellows are pushed to grow as followers of Jesus Christ.
I am also excited about this because my time in Tulsa, Oklahoma has been such a blessing to me. I love having a foot in Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa Extension Site and one on the Asbury Church pastoral team. I love being at Asbury Church. My faith has grown here. I have been strengthened and sharpened here. I am grateful for the leadership of Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s Senior Pastor, and Rodney Adams, the Executive Director.
I am best at inviting people to things I enthusiastically believe in and I enthusiastically believe in what Jesus is doing at Asbury Church!
I believe the Fellowship Program is a crucial strategy in a time of uncertainty and significant change in American Christianity. The Fellowship Program is an intentional investment in in-person formation. I am certain the problems facing the church in our day will not be solved by applying more technology. On the contrary! We need to invest more fully in relationships in enfleshed spaces. The people I have seen really grow and thrive in their lives in Christ all have one thing in common: They are anchored within a family of faith that provides care, nurture, and discipline. And so, Asbury Fellows will move to Tulsa to be fully present here for two years.
Ok, that is why I’m so excited. Here are more details to help you decide if this is right for you:
Who is Asbury Church?
Asbury Church is a conservative evangelical church from the Wesleyan theological heritage in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Asbury has more than 2,500 people in-person in worship on average each week. We are passionate about figuring out how to do discipleship and evangelism with excellence in Negative World.[1] (The “Negative World” framework is integral to the Fellowship Program, so you will want to familiarize yourself with it if you don’t know about it and are trying to discern whether this is right for you.)
Asbury Church has the kinds of ministry opportunities you would expect of a church of this size: a pre-school, weekly small groups, kids and youth ministry, recovery ministry, and more. We lean into big events like Christmas Eve and Easter, as well as our own made-up holiday – Celebration Sunday! We are a Bible reading church, which is expressed through Bible reading guides and all church Bible Studies (which are roughly once a month during the school year). We also host a seminary extension site (Asbury Theological Seminary, a separate institution) on our property, which reflects our commitment to theological education and raising up the next generation of leaders for the church. Our commitment to education and formation is further seen in our launch of a Classical Christian School (Asbury Classical School) that is in its first year. And we are known in our community for our commitment to missions in and beyond our community.
What is the Asbury Fellows Program?
The Asbury’s Fellows program is a two-year fellowship that will raise up the next generation of leaders in the church and empower gifted young people who sense a calling to the work of the church. Fellows will explore their calling and be strengthened and equipped to lead in Negative World.
Fellows will also be pressed to grow through mentoring and discipleship. (I am personally most excited about this aspect, which is where I will spend most of my time with the Fellows.) As the Director of the Fellowship Program, I will meet with Fellows weekly for a Wesleyan class meeting experience, one-on-one check-ins, and a monthly book discussion. I love reading and engaging ideas and I want to introduce Fellows to the best books I’ve read on the Christian life, discipleship, the person and work of the Holy Spirit, big ideas about current issues, personal productivity, leadership, and more. The purpose of all of this will be to grow in Christ, ability to lead and disciple others, and be equipped to lead and minister in our changing cultural moment.
Fellows will have a mentor on the Asbury Church staff. They will also receive exposure to every major ministry area at Asbury Church, including Pastoral Ministry, Kids/Students, College/Young Adult, Business Administration, Outreach/Evangelism, Experience, Worship Arts, Communications, and Asbury Classical School. Based on the gifts of the Fellows and the needs of Asbury Church, Fellows will be given ministry assignments and responsibilities.
Asbury Fellows will be present at all worship services (including Wednesday morning communion and Thursday evening), staff chapel, and Wednesday evening discipleship activities, with a “see a need, meet a need” attitude.
Fellows will also observe leadership meetings, attend the monthly pastor’s Bible Study, assist with pastoral care and visitations, and other experiences that serve the Fellow’s growth and development as a ministry leader.
Who is the Asbury Fellowship Program for?
The Asbury Fellowship Program is ideal for people who have at least one year of full-time seminary experience to recent seminary graduates, who intend to go into local church ministry as their first career. The Fellowship Program is for people who are hungry for more of Jesus, want to grow, desire a deeper understanding and experience of the person and work of the Holy Spirit, and sense a calling to the work of the church.
Asbury Fellows will be people who love being around Jesus’s church, are excited by the prospect of being immersed in the life of a church for a season, and are eager to serve and participate in the full worshipping life of Asbury Church. Fellows will not only be hungry for more of God, but they will come humble, ready to grow and learn, and be led for a season.
The Asbury Fellowship Program will be a season of accelerated growth for Fellows in their preparation for leadership and administration of the local church. This Fellowship is for people who know they are called to the local church in some sense but may not be sure which part of the church they are called to. This is for people who know they don’t know everything and want to learn from a large and growing church that believes God has more for everyone and is passionate about pursuing joy individually and corporately.
Finally, the inaugural class of Asbury Fellows, in particular, will proactively set the culture for the Asbury Fellowship Program by creating a culture of excellence that will benefit all who come after them.
When will it start?
The Asbury Fellows Program will launch in August 2025. To apply email hr@asburytulsa.org by May 14th. Include with your application a resume and statement of interest that explains why you want to be an Asbury Fellow based on our description of who we are, who this program is for, and what you would most hope to receive from this experience.
[1] We believe Aaron Renn’s diagnosis is accurate. The church in the United States is not in Positive World or Neutral World anymore. The dominant culture and elite taste makers overwhelmingly view the teachings of Scripture and those who unapologetically hold to them negatively. For more, see Aaron Renn, Life in the Negative World (Zondervan, 2024) https://amzn.to/4i1PSST (Affiliate link) For the article that led to the book, see Aaron Renn, “The Three Worlds of Evangelicalism” in First Thingshttps://firstthings.com/the-three-worlds-of-evangelicalism/
We are going to have back-to-back Underground Seminary meetings here in Tulsa (March 27 and April 6) and I am pumped!
What is Underground Seminary?
There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to in the church that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.
In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities that typically come alongside classes I am teaching for Asbury Theological Seminary. I’m calling these special events “Underground Seminary.”
Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain as much wisdom and experience as they can from as many different places as possible as they are prepared and equipped to lead.
I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.
Our next Underground Seminary meeting:
Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary. It will be focused on the ways dramatic changes in the broader culture have impacted the church and radically changed the context in which we seek to share the gospel. Andrew will share a diagnosis of the problem facing the church and point to solutions for a way forward.
I’ll let Andrew share more about what he wants to do in this workshop in his own words:
The most important thing for church leaders to know in 2025 is that we are living in what Aaron Renn has called “the negative world.”
Things are different these days. Over the last decade, American culture has changed in ways that have become more hostile to the church and the claims of Christ, the result of which is that a majority of those who hold the keys to power in American society—those in politics, media, and education—have a negative view of Christianity. In light of these changes, I believe that the most important distinction in the American church today is not in the ways we normally categorize the church. The most important distinction in the American church today is between those who recognize we live in “the negative world” and those who have not yet accepted this fact.
This distinction matters because it directly affects our strategies for carrying out the Great Commission. Our mission from Jesus has not changed, and our responsibility to evangelize cannot be avoided. But the strategies we employ to complete that mission need to be constantly shifting, depending on the cultural context. The problem we face today is that many of our strategies for evangelism were developed in and for a previous cultural context, one that was largely positive about Christianity and that saw the Christian faith either something good or at best neutral. But that culture is gone, and it’s time for new strategies. If we keep running our plays out of the old playbook, we are going to lose the game.
I want to talk frankly about how we can lead the church to not only survive in negative world but thrive. I’m interested in talking to people who are hungry to make a difference and who are not satisfied to keep running plays out of an outmoded playbook.
Andrew is a brilliant strategic thinker about the local church and its role in the world. He has boldness and courage that I admire. He is willing to do the deep work it takes to get to clarity about hard things and big ideas. This is going to be a challenging and convicting conversation. And I think it is going to be a lot of fun. (If you want to know more about “Negative World” check out Aaron Renn’s book. The link is an Amazon affiliate link, which helps support my work.)
How to join us:
This Underground Seminary will be Sunday April 6th following worship Sunday morning. Lunch will be provided, and we will conclude by 3pm. In order to ensure that there is food and space for everyone, you need to RSVP if you would like to attend. We will send the location for the meeting to you after you RSVP by emailing Laura.Wilkie@asburyseminary.edu. Deadline to RSVP is March 28th.
P.S. It is not too late to register for the March 27th Underground Seminary with Rodney Adams, which I’m playfully calling “What They Don’t Teach You in Seminary.”Details here.
Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.
I have really enjoyed having my feet in both the church and the academy in my roles here in Tulsa. I am the Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theology Seminary, anchored at our Tulsa, OK Extension Site. I am also the Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. Though they share a connection to the legacy of Francis Asbury, the father of American Methodism, they are separate institutions.
I believe theological education is ultimately for the local church. A seminary should be evaluated based on its graduate’s ability to lead well in the local church. Other outcomes may be appropriate and valuable, but I cannot imagine anything being more central to the legacy of a seminary than the effectiveness of its alumni within the church.
There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to be pastors that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.
In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities for Asbury Theological Seminary students and others that I’m calling “Underground Seminary.”
Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain everything they can from their seminary experience. Some students want to do the least they can to get the most credit possible. And that’s fine. There are seasons where that is appropriate.
I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.
Our next Underground Seminary meeting is focused on practical details of running a church that they don’t teach you in seminary. It is March 27th from 12-3pm at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK.
Pastors often joke about the things they didn’t teach you in seminary. These are often very practical hands-on aspects of running the life of a church. And that is what this Underground Seminary will focus on: what they don’t teach you in seminary.
Rodney Adams, the Executive Director of Asbury Church, will lead this. And it will focus on strategy, culture, and operations in the day to day running of a church. I have had several conversations about this workshop with Rodney and I believe every church leader would benefit from what Rodney has to share.
In case you don’t already know Rodney, here is why you should want to learn from him:
Rodney is a former United States Marine Corps officer.
He worked for a season at a top global investment bank.
He has owned and operated his own business.
And, most importantly for this discussion, he is currently the Executive Director of Asbury Church.
Asbury is a large church that has 2,500 people in person in weekly worship. In his role, Rodney oversees:
80 full time staff and 60+ part time staff
$12.5 million annual budget
$12 million foundation
300,000 square foot facilities
Put simply: Rodney know how to run a large church with excellence.
At a personal level, I have never been around an organizational thinker and leader like Rodney. Working with him is fun because I get to see how ideas are actually brought to life. I have an easier time thinking of a thing that would be fun to do in theory. Rodney has great ideas. And he is the person who can take a dream and figure out the steps to make it reality. And, just as important, he can help you realize that an idea won’t work and save time, energy, and frustration.
The goal of Underground Seminary is to bring people hungry for excellence together for content that will equip and prepare them to lead in the church.
This one is going to be fun!
How to join us:
Lunch will be provided at the beginning of our time together. In order to ensure that there is food and space for everyone, you need to RSVP if you would like to attend. We will send the location for the meeting to you after you RSVP by emailing Laura.Wilkie@asburyseminary.edu. Deadline to RSVP is March 20th.
Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.
It took me fourteen years to really understand this.
Check out these unsolicited comments I received after the most recent class I taught at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. (The class was Wesleyan Discipleship and it was awesome! I asked and received permission from each student to share their encouraging words here.) Notice the emphasis on the atmosphere and what the culture of the class meant to the student.
Here is the first one:
I found my time at Asbury Seminary to be incredibly valuable and not just for the content of the class (which was excellent). There was, for lack of a better word, an anointing on the campus and on the course which caused me to be more focused, settled, and hungry for more of God. I sensed it impacting my life when I was there, and it (or at least a piece of it) has followed me home. I am working hard to cultivate it and give it space. Thank you for allowing me to audit your course.
It still amazes me that students are so hungry that they would travel from out of state, many taking time off of work, to audit this course.
Here is the second one:
I just wanted to say thank you for teaching the class on Wesleyan Discipleship! When you sent out the email prior to our time in Tulsa saying you hoped it would be like a retreat, I was skeptical. But I was happily surprised that it was like a retreat. I came back feeling refreshed and regenerated! Thank you for teaching this class and showing how much you care about the subject and about your students and their well-being. I am grateful and honored that I was able to take a class from you!
Here is the third one:
I just wanted to thank you for the way you ran the hybrid this weekend. I know you said you wanted it to feel more like a retreat and I think you accomplished just that. I don’t know if you got the response you were looking for, but I can tell you some things were revealed to me during your prayer Saturday morning that have brought some clarity to some problems I was having with my ministry. I don’t think the Holy Spirit would have given me that had I not been in the atmosphere you created. I am glad I was in the second group because I could not have shared that Friday. I will be a better pastor to my congregation moving forward for having been there. I don’t know that you could have taught the way you did on any of the other campuses. There are good things going on there in Tulsa. Y’all have quite the team and a very supportive host church as well.
And one more:
I wanted to personally write an email thanking you for all your hard work! It has been a pleasure getting to know you these semesters! … I also admire your sheer honesty and vulnerability with the class! It truly set the mood for everyone else! This last week was such a powerful week and I truly left feeling so filled and inspired to one day put into practice these discipleship techniques! I’ve started implementing them in a youth discipleship group I run and I even reached out to a few friends to start a band meeting style group! Thank you so much! You have truly blessed my seminary experience in many ways!
I deeply appreciate the kindness of each of these students who shared these comments. The unsolicited feedback I received from this course was unprecedented. (I received more than twice as many comments as I’ve shared here.)
I think there was so much of it because I am slow. And the Lord wanted to be sure he got my attention.
Do you see it?!
Let me give some brief context, in case some of the details of the students’ comments are confusing.
At Asbury Theological Seminary’s Extension Sites, we offer online classes and hybrid classes. Hybrids are my favorite. And they are a hybrid of online and in-person classes. The in-person portion of the class is a three-day intensive that happens once per class. In Tulsa, they are from Thursday evening through Saturday late afternoon. We spend 20 hours in two and a half days together.
It is intense.
And it is awesome!
If I had not figured out what really mattered to me, I think the hybrids would probably have gotten no unsolicited encouragement from my students.
One of the great things about teaching is that once you are the instructor of record for a class, you are in charge. You may not have authority anywhere else within the institution, but you do have authority in the classroom.
Until recently, I put most of my focus on what I would guess you would assume to be most important: the content of the actual course.
In other words, I got to choose the required readings. I was responsible for determining the means of evaluating students. And I was the one who would do the actual evaluation and assign grades.
It was up to me to decide what to teach and how to assess whether students had learned what I wanted them to learn.
Most of my energy went into preparing detailed lectures that accurately transferred the most important information.
But when I taught a class that felt like magic, where there was an internal sense of “Yes! This is what I hoped teaching would be like,” and where students seemed to “get it” – it wasn’t because I felt like I’d perfectly delivered the content.
It was something else. Something that was harder for me to articulate.
Looking back, the first time I got a glimpse of this was the Fall 2016 semester when I was teaching at Candler School of Theology at Emory University.
I learned that if I wanted to be able to lead my students, they needed to know that I cared about them.
I remember a specific class in the Fall of 2016 when something was definitely in the air in the room one particular day. And I consciously decided to allow that to take over the agenda for the day. Something shifted that day. The class went to a deeper level than merely handing on information about a particular subject.
This was a key step for me. I was intuitively starting to figure something out. But I still had a lot to learn.
Since moving to teach at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa Extension Site, I started noticing that what I was hoping to see happen in my classes was happening with a higher percentage of students than I’d ever experienced.
Here is what I finally figured out that I can now name:
Atmosphere is more important than content.
I am now more concerned with the atmosphere in the classroom than I am with the content that will be shared in the classroom.
By atmosphere, I am not really talking about sights, sounds, and smells. Though, these matter.
This is what I mean: culture is more important than content.
My greatest desire for every class I teach, regardless of the subject of the class, is for students to encounter the Lord and continue growing in their faith as they prepare for leadership Jesus’s church.
I want them to grow in understanding. And you can see that some of the comments speak to that. But I am convinced that more growth in understanding happens when you set the right culture.
So, now I work really hard to think through how to create the right atmosphere, the right culture within the class.
This is hard work.
Every class is different.
There is a culture established within Asbury Theological Seminary. And, as two of the comments noted, I think the Lord has given a special anointing to our Tulsa Extension Site that sets a particular kind of culture.
But I must be attentive to the atmosphere for each class and work to set the culture.
How I Work to Create a Great Atmosphere for My Classes
Here are a handful of things I intentionally do to create the right atmosphere for my classes.
First, I accept that it is my responsibility to take responsibility for doing this work. It does not happen spontaneously or by magic.
And so, in each class at Asbury, before the students come to Tulsa, I send an email to set our expectations for the three days we have together. You may have noticed the word “retreat” in several of the student comments above. That is because in this email, I tell students I want the weekend to be a retreat. Some students are skeptical that 20 hours in a classroom in 2.5 days could be anything like a retreat.
The email I send names the values I have for our time together that are discussed in what follows. This sets the expectations for the class and intentionally names what I value most.
Second, I am certain that all of this is dependent on the Lord. If the Lord withdraws his presence, nothing good can happen. (This is really first. But it made sense to me for this article to include it here.)
I am not being sentimental here or using pious language to impress you. I literally mean that I am consciously aware that Kevin cannot create what students need.
One way I express dependence on the Lord and a desperation for him to move is by fasting and inviting my students to fast with me for the 24 hours prior to our in-person intensive. This is not required, it is an invitation. I think fasting is one of the most important and underused basic spiritual practices. And I think corporate fasting is particularly spiritually potent.
One thing I love about the unity God has given us here is that my colleague in Tulsa, Penny Hammond (Tulsa’s Senior Enrollment Advisor), joins us in fasting in preparation for the course.
Third, the class starts by breaking our fast together with a meal that Asbury Theological Seminary provides. This facilities informal conversation and begins creating the kind of community we’re hoping to see.
Fourth, after dinner, we go to worship at Asbury Church (not related to Asbury Theological Seminary).
My calling is to raise up the next generation of leaders for the church. And so, I unapologetically see worshipping the Lord corporately as part of my work as a teacher. We do that in my classes by attending the Thursday evening worship service at Asbury Church.
In my mind, this is not an extra-curricular optional part of theological education. Worship should be thought of as a central piece of the formation and education of the next generation of leaders. And if you know next gen leaders, you know that they already know this!
I particularly love doing this in my context because Asbury Church (Tulsa, OK) is a fantastic church! I cannot imagine having a better partner for the work we are doing in Tulsa. (I love that one of my students noticed this and named it.) Worshipping on Thursday night also means that my students get to experience the preaching of Rev. Andrew Forrest, who is one of the best preachers of our day. At my Wesleyan Discipleship intensive, Andrew preached on the reality of death. It was a perfect way to begin the class. Begin with the end in view: You are going to die. Are you ready? What a great way to begin thinking more intentionally about discipleship!
Asbury Church and Asbury Seminary together gave every student a gift bag with Asbury Church and Asbury Seminary swag. At another hybrid, the church blessed students with gift cards to fast food restaurants near the church so some of the cost of attending a hybrid could be offset. I really appreciate that the church is committed to providing exceptional hospitality for our students in Tulsa.
I believe it is essential for the church and academy to be connected. Seminaries should literally exist to serve the local church. I could not envision a better partnership than Asbury Church’s support of Asbury Seminary’s Tulsa Extension Site.
Fifth, we walk back to the classroom after worship and I begin by sharing more vulnerably and honestly about my own story and my family than I do in public setting, particularly online. I show pictures of my family and talk about what I love about my children. I share about my sense of calling to Tulsa, OK and the at times bumpy road to get here.
I do this because it is who I am. I desire authenticity and vulnerability from others. I value candor and being candid with students is a sign of my respect.
I also do this because small group dynamics show that the level at which the leader shares is the level at which the rest of the group will share. If I want the atmosphere in my class to be a place where students can grieve, ask for prayer around something vulnerable, and seek the Lord together as we are prepared for the next step in our callings, I must be willing to go first.
Because this last class was about Wesleyan Discipleship, I made this explicit and talked about doing it myself and how the same dynamic would be in play when they broke out into the small group exercises we had as a class. And even though I know it is true intellectually, it still stunned me to see in the two groups I observed how the entire group mirrored the vulnerability and honesty of the first person who shared.
Sixth, I then give the students an opportunity to break the ice and ask them to share a bit about themselves.This is fast paced due to the size of our classes. But it gives them a chance to begin to bring their stories into the classroom itself.
Seventh, I work really hard to use students’ names throughout the intensive. This is not a natural strength of mine. I have to work really hard. And in large classes, I sometimes have to humble myself and admit I have forgotten a name, apologize, and ask for help. I’ve noticed that when I do this, the students seem to work more at learning each other’s names as well. This is huge for me, because the goal is not for me to have a relationship with each student only. The goal is for a real community to be established within the class. I want the students to feel connected to each other!
Eighth, I intentionally center Scripture and prayer at the beginning of each part of the class. There is a huge difference between doing this to check a box and doing this in hopes of welcoming the Lord and being led by the Holy Spirit. I will often explicitly give time to listen in silence to the Lord. Sometimes I feel led to offer a particular prompt for how we should listen. If we are resting in silence, I tell the students how long it will be and that I will keep track of the time. This can be such a blessing, because it allows them to relax into the stillness and trust me to keep time.
Ninth, I have a plan for the entire hybrid when it starts. I really do. But I commit to hold it loosely. This may be a place where experience matters. It is not hard for me to lecture for 20 hours on a topic like Wesleyan Discipleship. So, I am not anxious about having enough to say. And I also have greater confidence in my ability to triage what is most important for them to hear from me in person versus what they can glean from assignments. I have a plan, but I mostly use it to check in at breaks to see how the pace is going and to decide if I need to cut things I was planning to do in order to give more time to something that has come up.
My primary concern throughout the intensive is to be present to the Lord and to my students and adjust according to what is happening.
Tenth, finally, and most importantly, I intentionally give time for the Lord to move. And this has never stopped feeling hard for me. It is vulnerable. At the end of in-person semester long classes, I used to always ask: How have you seen God at work in your life throughout this semester?
And every single time, I was afraid it would just be awkward silence. Crickets. No one would say anything. But that never happened! Not even close. There were always students who shared in deeply vulnerable ways of the Lord’s work in their lives that blessed the class.
I have come to see holding space for the Lord to lead and for students to respond as the most important thing I do. It is certainly not all I do. But if I don’t do it, it will not happen. It one of the things that only the person who has authority can do.
I primarily do this by working to listen for God’s guidance. And often, I simply test the room based on a sense I have of the Lord’s leading.
This is more art than science. When I lean into this space, it is often the moment students remember about the class. It is what marks them. And it often brings the content of the course to life.
Two cautions: First, openness to the presence of the Lord with you in class is not in lieu of actually preparing to teach (the same is true for preaching). Second, don’t force anything. Don’t try to make something happen in your flesh. Consciously and explicitly give the Holy Spirit permission to move. And then wait on him and be obedient to his leading.
Ok, this is not an exhaustive list. But this is already too long!
The atmosphere you create is more important than the content you deliver. Great content with inattentiveness to the atmosphere will almost certainly be forgotten.
What kind of atmosphere are you creating in the places you have authority to lead? If you haven’t been giving attention to this, I would encourage you to spend some time reflecting on what it is like to come to the spaces and places where you are leading. How do you think people feel? Perhaps ask a person or two that you believe will tell you the truth.
Atmosphere is where the magic happens.
Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.
Affiliate links, which support the author’s work, used in this post.
Kevin M. Watson 