Underground Seminary: Love Goes First with Rev. Andrew Forrest

08 Wednesday Oct 2025

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Book Review, Christian Living, Ministry, Underground Seminary

Tags

Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church, Asbury Theological Seminary, Bible, Christianity, church, faith, Jesus, Love Goes First, Underground Seminary

Underground Seminary is back!

The first events we have done have been so fun! And I am more excited about this conversation than any that we’ve had yet. I can’t wait!

Francis Asbury statue at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK

What is Underground Seminary?

There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to in the church that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.

In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities that typically come alongside classes I am teaching for Asbury Theological Seminary. I’m calling these special events “Underground Seminary.”

Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain as much wisdom and experience as they can from as many different places as possible as they are prepared and equipped to lead.

I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.

Our next Underground Seminary meeting:

Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary on his new book Love Goes First.

Yesterday was the official release date for Love Goes First. I believe in the message of this book and I am really excited for this book to be out in the world. (If you can’t make it to this event, you should still buy the book!)

I wrote a review of the book, last week. Here is an excerpt from my review:

Here is the unique challenge facing the American church today: For the first time ever, we are faced with reaching a culture that has been exposed to the gospel and is largely built on Christian foundations but is now post-Christian. As Forrest puts it, “It is certainly nothing new for the church to be hated… but it is unprecedented for the church to be hated by a culture that once used to honor and respect it.” (8-9)

And so, Love Goes First is “about how we, as American Christians, can reach the people who believe we are the problem, those who hate us and all we stand for.” (7)

Here is the big idea of the book:

“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.” (10)

Read the review here.

If you are a pastor or want to be a church leader, Andrew is someone you should learn from. He has a proven track record as a church planter, leader, and pastor.

To give just one example: In his first three years here at Asbury Church, in person attendance has increased by nearly 25%.

This Underground Seminary gives you the opportunity to hear from Andrew in a smaller more intimate setting than the places he typically speaks. I think this will be challenging, convicting, and fun.

How to join us:

This Underground Seminary will be Thursday November 6^th from 12:00 – 2:30pm here at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. Those who register will receive lunch and a copy of Love Goes First. Registration is $10. You can register by emailing amiller@asburytulsa.org. You will receive details on the exact location after you register. Deadline to RSVP is October 30^th.

This event is sponsored by Asbury Church. This should be obvious, but lunch and a copy of the book will cost the church more than $10 per person – the book itself is currently $18.78 on Amazon. The point of having a cost of registration is that when people have skin in the game, they tend to follow through and show up. In other words, you can get a copy of the book for basically half price and a free lunch! The church is not making money off of this event. Rather, we are investing in you because we are committed to raising up the next generation of leaders for the church.

There is a lot of mystery and chance in the world of publishing. It is very difficult to predict the success of a new publication. I don’t know if Love Goes First will get the kind of boost needed for it to become a spectacular commercial success. I do know it is the rare book that is worthy of a wide reading. Love Goes First is on the short list of the most important books I’ve read in my ministry career. I think this book is going to be a catalyst for bringing together a new network of Christian leaders who are willing to step into the unknown and risk everything for the Gospel for such a time as this.

Let’s go!

Kevin M. Watson is a Pastor and the Senior Director of Christian Formation at Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. He is also on the faculty at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

Love Goes First – A Prophetic Word for Such a Time as This

30 Tuesday Sep 2025

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Book Review, Christian Living

≈ Leave a comment

Tags

Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church, Book Review

The Rev. Andrew Forrest has written Love Goes First: Reaching Others in an Age of Anxiety and Division and it is easily one of the ten most important books I have read in the past decade.

Love Goes First offers penetrating cultural analysis. Andrew does the best job of anyone I’ve seen of providing a roadmap for the times in which we are living. I have read a fair amount of cultural analysis that leaves me feeling discouraged, pessimistic, and hopeless. Basically, the feeling I’m left with is: Why even try?

Almost as bad, may worse actually, is cultural analysis that is thin, overly optimistic, and obviously in denial about the seriousness of the challenges we are facing.

More importantly than offering an accurate diagnosis of where we are, Andrew points us to the way forward. On the one hand, Andrew is honest about the challenges facing the church, which can be sobering. On the other hand, he refuses to be a victim of circumstances beyond his control.

I have seen quite a bit of hand wringing about problems facing American Christians in our cultural moment. I have not seen nearly as much positive and proactive guidance on how to move forward that does not somehow involve putting our heads in the sand.

Here is the unique challenge facing the American church today: For the first time ever, we are faced with reaching a culture that has been exposed to the gospel and is largely built on Christian foundations but is now post-Christian. As Forrest puts it, “It is certainly nothing new for the church to be hated… but it is unprecedented for the church to be hated by a culture that once used to honor and respect it.” (8-9)

And so, Love Goes First is “about how we, as American Christians, can reach the people who believe we are the problem, those who hate us and all we stand for.” (7)

Here is the big idea of the book that Andrew unpacks over the following chapters:

“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.” (10)

Some people will miss just how profound that statement is because they will think they already know it. So many of the most important truths in life are obvious when they are stated, but their deep impact comes from the commitment to live according to reality.

It is living according to the way things are that is difficult and potent.

“If you want to change the world, you have to go first, because love goes first.”

This requires willingness to be rejected. It requires willingness to be hurt emotionally, perhaps even physically.

Andrew is a wordsmith. And this book has so many truth bombs sprinkled throughout. Here are a few:

“Young people interviewed on the street might applaud our accommodationist values, but they would never come to our churches.” (48)

“Accommodation would mean a church without distinctiveness, judgment would mean a church without success, withdrawal would mean a church without purpose. What do we do now? Our only option is to move forward…. to go first.” (68)

“One of the great problems with contemporary higher education is that our young people are being permanently infantilized because we are teaching them to prioritize feelings above facts, a manner of instruction that will ultimately benefit neither them nor us.” (77)

“Going first as I use the phrase is not about you at all: It’s about the other.” (116)

“The Bible’s understanding of love is exactly opposite to that of the world.” (135)

“Going first comes with a cost. The love of God, though freely given, was indescribably costly to give. The same is true for us – yes, going first has the power to change the world, but it is going to cost us everything.” (179)

“If you decide to go first, you will get hurt. It will sting. You’ll be misunderstood.” (187)

These quotes give you a taste of the seriousness of this book. Andrew is not playing games. He is not tickling ears. This book is a product of years of leadership in the church and reflection on how fast things have changes over the past decade or so.

Love Goes First is the battle plan for how Christians can turn the tide in a time of increased hostility and even persecution in our day. The book does not offer wishful thinking for people who just want everything to get better without having any skin in the game or having to risk anything.

My prayer is that Love Goes First will serve as a wakeup call to the American Church. My experience in my own part of the American church has been so insular, petty, and obsessed with denominational fighting that I think the enemy has been using it to keep the church focused on itself and distracted from its central mission.

In all times and all places, the church is called to reach everyone, everywhere, and teach them everything Jesus has taught us. (This is how Andrew paraphrased the Great Commission [Matthew 28:16-20] in his sermon this weekend, the first in a sermon series on Love Goes First. It was fantastic. You should watch it.)

How are we doing with making disciples of Jesus Christ?

In my experience, every church in the United States knows that their mission is to make disciples of Jesus Christ. And yet, almost no churches know how to actually do this.

We need to recalibrate the activities that happen in the church and ask ourselves: Is this helping the people who participate take the next step in their faith in Jesus? Is this helping someone move from considering the claims of the gospel of Jesus Christ to faith in him? Is this helping someone with new faith in Jesus become closer to Jesus? Is this helping someone who is growing closer to Jesus learn to put Jesus at the very center of their lives and become a mature committed follower who is willing to risk everything for faithfulness to Christ?

Love Goes First is not a discipleship handbook. It is more like someone pulling the fire alarm. The building is on fire. We’ve been so numbed and complacent, we’ve fallen asleep. I believe the Lord is waking the American church from its slumber. And I think Forrest’s book is one of the ways he is doing that.

I’d like to offer a personal word about Andrew Forrest. I believe Andrew is the best preacher of his generation. He is a bold and courageous leader. He is an exceptional pastor. I’ve known Andrew for 17 years. We met during my first year in the PhD program at SMU when he was working on his MDiv. Our sons were born within a few weeks of each other while we were in Dallas. My wife and I were part of the launch team for the church Andrew and his wife led in East Dallas for more than a decade. Andrew and I were in an accountability group together for several years.

From 2011 to 2023, I moved 4 times. During those years, Andrew was a faithful friend. In August of 2022 Andrew became the senior pastor of the church my parents had been attending for more than a decade, Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK. Andrew came to Asbury at a difficult time in my life. My mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer in the Fall of 2022 and she died in early 2023. Prior to my mom’s illness, I was in the midst of the most challenging season in work and ministry I have ever experienced. Andrew’s kindness and concern for me since we met in 2011 has been remarkable and consistent.

The generosity of Asbury Church made it possible for my family to move to Tulsa and begin work at Asbury Theological Seminary, anchoring the seminary’s Tulsa Extension Site. Working for Andrew at Asbury Church has been so fun! I have learned so much.

By the way, Andrew writes regularly at his own website. You should check it out.

Love Goes First is an excellent book. It stands on its own. You don’t have to know the author to read it and benefit from it. However, it is a particular blessing to me to know the author of this book and be able to enthusiastically commend Andrew to you as much as the content of the book itself.

You should buy a copy of Love Goes First now. Read it. Talk about it with your staff, your community, your family, and your friends. It officially releases on October 7^th, one week from today. Pre-order it now.

I don’t know what is going to happen in the American church. Only the Lord knows. But I am sure that we must follow the example of our Lord and go first in love to a world that is broken, hurting, and angry.

Even if it costs us everything.

Love Goes First is a prophetic word for such a time as this. I hope you will check it out!

[Full disclosure: Andrew is also my boss. He did not ask me to write this review. I am writing it solely because I believe this book will help you if you are a leader in the church or seeking to grow in your faith in Jesus.]

Life Update and Upcoming Opportunities with Me in Tulsa

20 Thursday Mar 2025

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Life, Ministry, Sermons, Teaching, Underground Seminary

≈ 1 Comment

Tags

Andrew Forrest, Fellowship Program, John 7, preaching, sermon, Underground Seminary

I had the privilege of preaching here at Asbury Church last week. At Asbury, we like to say that we are a Bible reading church. And that literally means we are committed to reading Scripture together. We are currently reading through the Gospel of John. Our senior pastor, Rev. Andrew Forrest, writes a daily Bible reading guide that helps us work through the selected book of the Bible we are reading. You can check it out here. (You should also visit his website. You can subscribe there to get the daily readings sent to your inbox.)

When Andrew asked me to preach on John 7, I was immediately grabbed by verses 16-17:

So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.” (ESV)

The first time I read it, I just thought: Jesus is saying that if you want to know if his teaching is true, you have to follow it to find out. I sat with that text for weeks (a luxury those of you who preach weekly don’t have). I had a lot of fun with this sermon, particularly with the main illustration, which I think connected better than any illustration I’ve ever used.

You can check it out here.

The next two weeks are my favorite time of the semester. I will have students in Tulsa for my Basic Christian Doctrine hybrid and my Theology of John Wesley hybrid. I get so excited having students come in for these classes. They are like retreats where we get to go deep in the content for the course. More importantly, we get to be present to the Holy Spirit and allow him to lead, direct, connect, and build community in our midst. It is so fun!

If you’re interested in seminary, you should check out Asbury Theological Seminary. You should also move to Tulsa and take classes here.

P.S. Speaking of moving to Tulsa: Asbury Church is launching a Fellowship Program. If you are interested in moving to Tulsa to learn, grow, and be equipped to lead in the church at a conservative, evangelical church from the Wesleyan theological tradition, get ready to apply. (For context: Asbury Church is averaging 2,500+ in in-person [not online] weekly worship attendance.) More details soon!

P.P.S. Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, is leading the next Underground Seminary event. It will be Sunday April 6^th after worship from 12:30-3:00pm. The church will provide lunch we would love to have you experience worship with us at 11am. It is also fine if you come from worship at your own church, if you’re in the area. Andrew is going to talk about “The Most Important Distinction in the American Church Today.” I’ve talked with him quite a bit about this material and it is essential for church leaders to be wrestling with. If you misdiagnose the moment we are in, your strategy for evangelism and discipleship will not work. RSVP to Laura.Wilkie@asburyseminary.edu by March 27th. More information on this event in last week’s post.

Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States. Affiliate links, which help support my work, used in this post.

The Most Important Distinction in the American Church Today: The Next Underground Seminary

12 Wednesday Mar 2025

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Christian Living, Ministry, Teaching, Underground Seminary

≈ 2 Comments

Tags

Aaron Renn, Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church, Asbury Theological Seminary, Christian formation, culture, discipleship, Evangelism, Negative World, Underground Seminary

We are going to have back-to-back Underground Seminary meetings here in Tulsa (March 27 and April 6) and I am pumped!

What is Underground Seminary?

I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.

Our next Underground Seminary meeting:

Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary. It will be focused on the ways dramatic changes in the broader culture have impacted the church and radically changed the context in which we seek to share the gospel. Andrew will share a diagnosis of the problem facing the church and point to solutions for a way forward.

I’ll let Andrew share more about what he wants to do in this workshop in his own words:

The most important thing for church leaders to know in 2025 is that we are living in what Aaron Renn has called “the negative world.”

Things are different these days. Over the last decade, American culture has changed in ways that have become more hostile to the church and the claims of Christ, the result of which is that a majority of those who hold the keys to power in American society—those in politics, media, and education—have a negative view of Christianity. In light of these changes, I believe that the most important distinction in the American church today is not in the ways we normally categorize the church. The most important distinction in the American church today is between those who recognize we live in “the negative world” and those who have not yet accepted this fact.

This distinction matters because it directly affects our strategies for carrying out the Great Commission. Our mission from Jesus has not changed, and our responsibility to evangelize cannot be avoided. But the strategies we employ to complete that mission need to be constantly shifting, depending on the cultural context. The problem we face today is that many of our strategies for evangelism were developed in and for a previous cultural context, one that was largely positive about Christianity and that saw the Christian faith either something good or at best neutral. But that culture is gone, and it’s time for new strategies. If we keep running our plays out of the old playbook, we are going to lose the game.

I want to talk frankly about how we can lead the church to not only survive in negative world but thrive. I’m interested in talking to people who are hungry to make a difference and who are not satisfied to keep running plays out of an outmoded playbook.

Andrew is a brilliant strategic thinker about the local church and its role in the world. He has boldness and courage that I admire. He is willing to do the deep work it takes to get to clarity about hard things and big ideas. This is going to be a challenging and convicting conversation. And I think it is going to be a lot of fun. (If you want to know more about “Negative World” check out Aaron Renn’s book. The link is an Amazon affiliate link, which helps support my work.)

How to join us:

This Underground Seminary will be Sunday April 6^th following worship Sunday morning. Lunch will be provided, and we will conclude by 3pm. In order to ensure that there is food and space for everyone, you need to RSVP if you would like to attend. We will send the location for the meeting to you after you RSVP by emailing Laura.Wilkie@asburyseminary.edu. Deadline to RSVP is March 28^th.

P.S. It is not too late to register for the March 27^th Underground Seminary with Rodney Adams, which I’m playfully calling “What They Don’t Teach You in Seminary.” Details here.

Munger Place – Membership

13 Thursday Jan 2011

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Christian Living, Life, Ministry, Wesley

≈ 6 Comments

Tags

Andrew Forrest, Church Membership, Munger Place

I think Munger Place Church, a congregation of Highland Park UMC, is doing some great things. I want to share a few things I have experienced at Munger that I think could be instructive for the broader United Methodist Church.

A few weeks ago I attended the membership class for Munger with my wife. The class was two hours on a Wednesday night, and there were more than fifty people there – and this was the third membership class! Part of Andrew’s vision for Munger is that he wants it to be a place where everyone is welcomed with open arms on the one hand, but where there are meaningful standards for membership on the other hand.

Incidentally, I am in complete agreement with Andrew here. I think the best way to measure whether a church has meaningful membership standards is whether the average attendance is higher than the membership of the church. My guess is that most United Methodist congregations have a membership that is two times larger than the average weekly worship attendance of the church. When this is the case it reveals that the members of the church do not think something as basic as showing up at church is essential to being a member of the church. As Andrew said in the membership class, this is a model that a health club would love. You could buy one treadmill and have 10 million members!

Currently, Munger Place has four expectations of each person who takes the extra step of becoming a member of the church. 1) Attendance at weekly worship service; 2) Support the church financially with consistent giving; 3) Participate in a weekly small group, which Munger calls Kitchen Groups; 4) Serve others, particularly the last, the least, and the lost.

I appreciated the way Andrew communicated these four expectations in a way that showed that they really were expected of members, but avoided coming across as legalistic of Pharisaic. Andrew also stated explicitly that if people were unsure of whether they were ready to make these commitments, they were welcomed – and encouraged! – to continue to be active in the church without taking the step of becoming a member.

Just exactly how members will be held accountable for keeping these expectations remains to be seen. But Andrew has already raised the standards for the typical United Methodist Church by having a mandatory membership class. And if this Sunday is an indication, I am told that there were about one hundred people who joined the church the first time they were given the opportunity. (I was disappointed to miss worship, as I was in Atlanta for an academic conference.)

I have spoken with a few people who joined the church and have been thrilled to hear how meaningful it was to them. One person talked about how big of a step this was in their life. Another person said that it was so meaningful they had tears of joy as they made their commitment to ministry through and with the church. One person emailed me to celebrate becoming a part of Munger and joining the UMC for the first time. The email concluded, “Go Wesley!”

One of the things that excites me the most about Munger is that I have met several people who are captivated by the Wesleyan vision for the Christian life. These women and men do not have the anxiety about the future of our denomination that many lifelong Methodists have. In fact, they hardly seem to notice the decline, because they are too captivated by the God who is changing their lives.

And if this weren’t enough… this is all happening in a church that was closed because it was no longer financially viable. New life. Resurrection. Thanks be to God!

Munger Place in the News

05 Wednesday Jan 2011

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Article Review, Christian Living, Ministry

≈ 1 Comment

Tags

Andrew Forrest, Mary Jacobs, Munger Place

Mary Jacobs of the United Methodist Reporter has recently written a feature piece on Munger Place Church. Munger is the church that my family has been involved with since it began the process of relaunching about a year ago. Public worship services began in October and have been ongoing since. I have been working on a longer post on Munger in my head for weeks now, but until I get it down here I will say that there are two things that I think Munger Place is doing that offer a model for The United Methodist Church.

First, campus pastor Andrew Forrest is serious about working to reclaim a contemporary equivalent of the early Methodist class meeting. Andrew calls these groups Kitchen Groups, and they are primarily focused on creating a space where people come together to talk about how their journey as followers of Jesus Christ is going – that is the primary purpose and activity of Kitchen Groups.

The second thing about Munger that really excites me is that it is providing an opportunity for a young person with obvious gifts to gain real ministry experience in a growing church. Andrew will graduate from Perkins School of Theology this spring, and as a result is in the process of applying for commissioning as an elder. It excites me that he is not just observing, but leading and even preaching at a church that had 700 people in attendance on its first week in worship and has consistently had 400 people a week in worship since. For all the talk about the need for younger clergy in the denomination, I don’t often see younger clergy given this kind of opportunity to thrive in ministry. If the UMC is serious about attracting the best and brightest of the up and coming generations, it will need to be willing to take risks on gifted people like Andrew.

You can visit Munger’s website here.