The Most Important Distinction in the American Church Today: The Next Underground Seminary

12 Wednesday Mar 2025

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Christian Living, Ministry, Teaching, Underground Seminary

Tags

Aaron Renn, Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church, Asbury Theological Seminary, Christian formation, culture, discipleship, Evangelism, Negative World, Underground Seminary

We are going to have back-to-back Underground Seminary meetings here in Tulsa (March 27 and April 6) and I am pumped!

What is Underground Seminary?

There are some things that don’t fit in courses I teach, or perhaps even in the seminary curriculum at all, that people preparing to lead in the local church need to wrestle with, think about, or just have someone tell them. There are also conversations that I want to have with people who are preparing to in the church that I think will be helpful to them and I don’t know where they would fit in specific classes.

In my role for Asbury Church, I’m still interested in shaping pastors. So, I have been working on optional, not-for-credit, opportunities that typically come alongside classes I am teaching for Asbury Theological Seminary. I’m calling these special events “Underground Seminary.”

Underground Seminary is for people preparing to lead in the church who are hungry to learn and grow. They want to gain as much wisdom and experience as they can from as many different places as possible as they are prepared and equipped to lead.

I’m most excited to work with people who know God has more for them and they are going after it. Underground Seminary is for these people.

Our next Underground Seminary meeting:

Rev. Andrew Forrest, Asbury Church’s senior pastor, will lead our next Underground Seminary. It will be focused on the ways dramatic changes in the broader culture have impacted the church and radically changed the context in which we seek to share the gospel. Andrew will share a diagnosis of the problem facing the church and point to solutions for a way forward.

I’ll let Andrew share more about what he wants to do in this workshop in his own words:

The most important thing for church leaders to know in 2025 is that we are living in what Aaron Renn has called “the negative world.”

Things are different these days. Over the last decade, American culture has changed in ways that have become more hostile to the church and the claims of Christ, the result of which is that a majority of those who hold the keys to power in American society—those in politics, media, and education—have a negative view of Christianity. In light of these changes, I believe that the most important distinction in the American church today is not in the ways we normally categorize the church. The most important distinction in the American church today is between those who recognize we live in “the negative world” and those who have not yet accepted this fact.

This distinction matters because it directly affects our strategies for carrying out the Great Commission. Our mission from Jesus has not changed, and our responsibility to evangelize cannot be avoided. But the strategies we employ to complete that mission need to be constantly shifting, depending on the cultural context. The problem we face today is that many of our strategies for evangelism were developed in and for a previous cultural context, one that was largely positive about Christianity and that saw the Christian faith either something good or at best neutral. But that culture is gone, and it’s time for new strategies. If we keep running our plays out of the old playbook, we are going to lose the game.

I want to talk frankly about how we can lead the church to not only survive in negative world but thrive. I’m interested in talking to people who are hungry to make a difference and who are not satisfied to keep running plays out of an outmoded playbook.

Andrew is a brilliant strategic thinker about the local church and its role in the world. He has boldness and courage that I admire. He is willing to do the deep work it takes to get to clarity about hard things and big ideas. This is going to be a challenging and convicting conversation. And I think it is going to be a lot of fun. (If you want to know more about “Negative World” check out Aaron Renn’s book. The link is an Amazon affiliate link, which helps support my work.)

How to join us:

This Underground Seminary will be Sunday April 6^th following worship Sunday morning. Lunch will be provided, and we will conclude by 3pm. In order to ensure that there is food and space for everyone, you need to RSVP if you would like to attend. We will send the location for the meeting to you after you RSVP by emailing Laura.Wilkie@asburyseminary.edu. Deadline to RSVP is March 28^th.

P.S. It is not too late to register for the March 27^th Underground Seminary with Rodney Adams, which I’m playfully calling “What They Don’t Teach You in Seminary.” Details here.

Kevin M. Watson is Director of Academic Growth and Formation at Asbury Theological Seminary’s Tulsa, OK Extension Site. He is also Scholar in Residence at Asbury Church. His most recent book, Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline describes the purpose of the Wesleyan tradition and the struggle to maintain its identity in the United States.

Life in the Negative World: A Review

14 Wednesday Feb 2024

Posted by Kevin M. Watson in Book Review, Christian Living, Ministry

≈ 3 Comments

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Aaron Renn, Negative World

In February 2022, Aaron Renn published a piece in First Things Magazine titled “The Three Worlds of Evangelicalism.” The article laid out a metanarrative for thinking about the changes evangelicalism in the United States has experienced over the past fifty years or so. (Renn actually first developed this argument in 2014, but the First Things piece brought a significant increase in attention to his argument.)

This article received a lot of attention, both positive and negative. I have found Renn’s way of framing the moment we are in to be very helpful. I was thrilled to see that he was publishing a book on this topic, Life in the Negative World, which was released just a few weeks ago.

Here is the heart of the argument:

Since that bygone midcentury era, the status of Christianity in America has passed through multiple thresholds as it declined, dividing that post-1963 period into three major eras, or worlds, characterized by three ways society at large has viewed and related to Christianity. These are the positive world, the neutral world, and the negative world (dates are approximate).

Positive World (1964-1994). Society at large retains a mostly positive view of Christianity. To be known as a good, churchgoing man or woman remains part of being an upstanding citizen of society. Publicly being a Christian enhances social status. Christian moral norms are still the basic moral norms of society, and violating them can lead to negative consequences.
Neutral World (1994-2014). Society takes a neutral stance toward Christianity. Christianity no longer has privileged status, but nor is it disfavored. Being publicly known as a Christian has neither a positive nor a negative impact on social status. Christianity is one valid option among many within a pluralistic, multicultural public square. Christian moral norms retain some residual effect.
Negative World (2014-present). In this era, society has an overall negative view of Christianity. Being known as a Christian is a social negative, particularly in the higher status domains of society. Christian morality is expressly repudiated and now seen as a threat to the public good and new public moral order. Holding to Christian moral views, particularly affirming the teachings of the Bible, or violating the new secular moral order can lead to negative consequences. (6-7)

Renn unpacks this argument at length in Life in the Negative World: Confronting Challenges in An Anti-Christian Culture. But the book is actually more about how Christians ought to live in negative world than it is a book-length argument trying to convince you that we are in negative world.

The phrase that has kept coming to mind as I have thought about Renn’s thesis and as the church seeks to respond faithfully to our present cultural moment is this:

Everything depends on knowing what time it is.

If we are in negative world and we respond with neutral world strategies, we will fail. Every. Single. Time.

And my sense is that most of the people in my tribe are living as if the last page of the calendar in 2014 had never turned.

One of the biggest indicators that you are attempting to live in the past is any attempt to woo the world on its own terms.

And I see this all over the place. If we could just explain ourselves in the right way, people would realize that we are reasonable, good, and likeable people. Let me put my understanding of Renn’s argument sharply:

If you are an evangelical Christian, they will never like you.

My sense has been that for quite a while, the church in America has tried to do evangelism by winsomeness. But if you are a traditional Christian, they are never going to like you. Instead of seeking to avoid giving any offense and trying to explain why our convictions are reasonable on the anti-Christian culture’s own terms, we need to evangelize. We need to seek conversion to Jesus and submission to him as Lord of all creation. Winsomeness is a losing strategy in negative world. (Please note that this is not the same thing as recommending the opposite of winsomeness as the right strategy. I am also not advocating for anger or bitterness or anything else contrary to the fruit of the Spirit.)

If you think all of this is dead wrong, I would encourage you to read Renn’s book. If you read it and are entirely unconvinced, then there will at least be clarity that we are working on very different problems. May God bless you in your work. I hope you will ask the Lord to bless my work as I work according to the truth as I best see it.

I am convinced those of us in the American church do live in negative world. This is true of our context. And it is independent of denominational affiliation across that context.

I suspect that most of the engagement with Renn’s book will consist of two responses:

Evaluation of the framework itself. Does he get the details of positive, neutral, and negative world right? And most importantly, are we in negative world?
Engagement with the prescriptions for life in negative world. What does Renn get right? Where is he off?

I think these are important and I will read these kinds of engagement with interest.

However, I want to respond to Renn’s book in a different way.

As I read Life in the Negative World, I often just felt sad. I felt sad because I know so few people who are doing this kind of work. I felt sad because even after having left the United Methodist Church, I still often feel like making progress on the issues facing the church is an uphill battle.

Having left the UMC, some seem to think the first order of business is showing the world we are not the crazy, bigoted fundies our enemies have said we are. But this posture is still reacting on the terms set by those who fundamentally disagree with us and will never like us.

Rather, I think the first order of business for those leaving the UMC is to get our own house in order as soon as it is properly our house and not the United Methodist Church’s house.

For many of us, a ruthless inventory is needed before we seek to enter the Promised Land of whether we are still carrying Egypt around with us.

Life in Negative World is, in my view, an important book simply because it is paying attention to the big picture and it is willing to risk speaking the truth as clearly and accurately as possible, even when it is uncomfortable, seems like bad news, or might offend.

On the one hand, we need to do our own work to develop moral courage, boldness, clarity, and a willingness to suffer for the core claims of the gospel, if necessary. And on the other hand, I believe that those who find themselves in leadership positions must use their power and influence to make it easier and not more difficult for people to “live not by lies.”

It is past time for those in the United States who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ to lay down their reputations and fear of man in obedience to the Lord.

If we live in negative world, and I believe we do, there are major adjustments that need to be made, and yesterday, in almost every single way we approach the Christian faith. Evangelistic strategies that worked in the 1990s and 2000s will not work in negative world. (And at least in my world, we never really had evangelistic strategies in these decades anyway.) The same is true for discipleship.

I have been reading Daniel 3 over and over again for years now. Daniel 3 is a beautiful story of cultural differentiation. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are so grounded in their faith that they can respond under immense pressure to the claims of the world and the demands of empire on their lives. They are differentiated from their cultural moment. They don’t pick fights to be nasty or pursue conflict. But they are willing to stand and put their entire trust in the Lord, even under very real threat of death.

This passage gets me every time:

If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God whom we serve is able to save us. He will rescue us from your power, Your Majesty. But even if he doesn’t, we want to make it clear to you, Your Majesty, that we will never serve your gods or worship the gold statue you have set up. (Daniel 3:17-18 NLT)

I long to see a church in the United States with his kind of clarity, conviction, and courage.

I am thankful for Aaron Renn’s willingness to step forward and offer new ideas and prod evangelicals in the United States to think more carefully about the times we live in that we might be faithful. This is not easy to do. I suspect it has come at a cost for him personally, though I do not know this.

If we are wrong, we can change our minds. But if we are too afraid to think or take any risks to ask questions or challenge the dominant culture and its brokenness, we are blind guides.

One more thing:

I was excited to see that the senior pastor of my church, Asbury Church in Tulsa, OK wrote an endorsement for Life in the Negative World. Here is why Rev. Andrew Forrest thinks you should read the book:

The most important distinction in the American church today is not the one between liberal and conservative, or high church and low church, or mainline and evangelical; no, the most important distinction in the American church today is between those who recognize that we live in the negative world and those who haven’t yet accepted that fact. I am in the former camp, and Aaron Renn has given me the vocabulary I need to help others see the world as it is. Every now and then a writer and thinker comes along who helps us see the world more clearly, and Aaron Renn has been that guide for me. In Life in the Negative World he does two important things: (1) He helps us see the world as it actually is and not as we wish it to be. (2) He gives us a way forward. I’d recommend this book to every pastor I know, and I’d like everyone in my church to read it.

(Links to the book in this post are Affiliate links, which means if you use them, it helps to support this blog.)